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  1. #10486
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    I guess a serious question: how many slave owners have you met? How many slave owners are currently negatively impacting the lives of black Americans?

    Again, if I'm in a neighborhood that is more dangerous, i judge everyone as potentially more dangerous. It's not about judging their character. I'm typically not in a situation to judge their character. It's a quick assessment as to whether a person can be dangerous to myself or my family. My ex gf lived in Singapore, one of the safest countries in the world. Their crime rate is like nothing. Even though it's a country, it has the vibe of a city. So when walking around Singapore with my ex, i was on alert. She would sort of laugh at me because in her mind, it's safe but it's just how i was raised.

    Also, i don't generally view slave owners as good. There's just no reason for me personally to judge them. They aren't a current threat in any way. Maybe this will help.... i was born just outside of Philadelphia, so the north. If i lived in 1860 and was traveling through the south, I'd be on alert because slave owners would be potentially dangerous.
    Singapore is a dream area for an expat if you can afford the housing. Low crime, clean as hell, can find inexpensive food, transportation is amazing and everyone pretty much speaks English. On weekends, you can travel to Malaysia and have an amazing time without spending much money.

    One thing that bugs me is when people always just the past based on modernity. A ton of **** we do today will probably be frowned upon by future generations and yet, we don't even know of it, yet. It's just a horrible way of venting at our ancestors. You learn from the past but trying to depict everyone as evil for actions of the majority in the past isn't a way to live.

  2. #10487
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: Your motivations being economic doesn't excuse you from the crimes you commit. If someone robs a bank and kills someone because they needed the money, we still hold them accountable of murder.

    Second Bolded: The northern economy was not dependent on slave labor because they made their economy that way. They chose to eschew slavery, while the south chose to embrace it. These were not predestined differences in their economies, they were a direct result of ones embracing of slavery and the others rejection of it.


    Bottom line: Just because you understand the human condition doesn't give people a pass for doing evil things. It becomes even harder to argue for the Slave owning Generals who fought both during the war and before it to perpetuate slavery. If you want to make exceptions for the poor southern white boy enlisted to fight, OK.

    That's not who the statues are of. The statues are of the Generals and politicians who pushed to perpetuate the practice. It's not that they didn't know any better, it's that nobody else knew any better because of them. They are the ones who stood on the Senate floor and said "over my dead body" when it came to abolishing slavery.
    I don't give a crap about any statues of anyone. All statues to me are decorations and places where pigeons take a crap. I am talking about people in this day and age thinking that people back centuries ago thought the way that people do now and that what they valued and knew was true was different for the most part.

    The general notion that the people fighting for the South in the Civil War were evil is wrong and that included many of the generals of the South. This war was one of economic reality and the culture of the time. All of the world, every culture through history basically justified the use of slavery until this very day in large parts of the world. Hell, Trudeau in Canada is openly jealous of China's dictatorship despite the enslavement of over a million Moslem people and Cuba where thousands of its own citizens were tortured and killed under Castro. And this is a huge trade partner of this country as is China.

    So be fair. Don't be a hypocrite. Slavery is still a blot on society. Condemn it universally as it should be but don't look the other way for some and yet condemn some poor sap for joining the Confederacy back 150 or so years ago,
    Last edited by Bird of Prey; 02-22-2022 at 01:42 PM.

  3. #10488
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    Singapore is a dream area for an expat if you can afford the housing. Low crime, clean as hell, can find inexpensive food, transportation is amazing and everyone pretty much speaks English. On weekends, you can travel to Malaysia and have an amazing time without spending much money.

    One thing that bugs me is when people always just the past based on modernity. A ton of **** we do today will probably be frowned upon by future generations and yet, we don't even know of it, yet. It's just a horrible way of venting at our ancestors. You learn from the past but trying to depict everyone as evil for actions of the majority in the past isn't a way to live.
    Singapore was awesome. I lived there for 4-5 months over two periods. I thought about moving there as an expat but my health issues would have most likely precluded that. And in case anyone is wondering, the punishment for overstaying your visa in public caning. The punishment for illegal drugs is typically death. So if addiction doesn't get you, the government will. Anyway, it was very clean. Housing and cars were super expensive but public transportation was great and again, clean. I went to Malaysia and Indonesia while living there. Also, the food, even the fast food was incredible. Durian smells like complete **** though.

    I think it's easy for us to look back on people 200 years ago and cast judgment. We have evolved as people and gratefully so. We should realize that and be thankful whether white or black. The people from the past paid the dues so we could evolve. It's weird to me to this in 200 years how those people will look at us in history and any mistakes we make. Part of me wonders if it will be related to the devices we are using to type our BS thoughts.

  4. #10489
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I also find it ironic that the same general people who talk about judging the entirety of confederate slave owner fighting for slavery's character are generally the same people who show zero compassion for those who get shot and killed by the police because they "shouldn't have been breaking the law".


    Imagine if they were as compassionate towards black people today as they are towards slave owners from 200 years ago...
    You are confusing different issues entirely. First of all, most of the police shootings are justified. Some aren't and the great majority are punished. As for the police, look at the number of cops who have been shot thus far this year for cripes sake?

  5. #10490
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Singapore was awesome…I thought about moving there…the punishment for overstaying your visa in public caning. The punishment for illegal drugs is typically death…

    We have evolved as people and gratefully so
    Nice juxtaposition.

  6. #10491
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    I guess a serious question: how many slave owners have you met? How many slave owners are currently negatively impacting the lives of black Americans?

    Again, if I'm in a neighborhood that is more dangerous, i judge everyone as potentially more dangerous. It's not about judging their character. I'm typically not in a situation to judge their character. It's a quick assessment as to whether a person can be dangerous to myself or my family. My ex gf lived in Singapore, one of the safest countries in the world. Their crime rate is like nothing. Even though it's a country, it has the vibe of a city. So when walking around Singapore with my ex, i was on alert. She would sort of laugh at me because in her mind, it's safe but it's just how i was raised.

    Also, i don't generally view slave owners as good. There's just no reason for me personally to judge them. They aren't a current threat in any way. Maybe this will help.... i was born just outside of Philadelphia, so the north. If i lived in 1860 and was traveling through the south, I'd be on alert because slave owners would be potentially dangerous.
    First Bolded: Thankfully none, though that would not be the case if the people you are praising had their way. Consider that, you're saying we should go ahead and honor slave owners because they aren't around to hurt anyone today when that was their goal.

    Second Bolded: And yet that's exactly what you're doing. You are personally judging them as worthy of statues honoring them.

    The whole point is you bend over backwards to defend slave owners honor while jumping at the first sign to vilify black people.

    Which makes it funny when you try to claim the other side are the real racists. How disconnected from reality do you have to be to think the people opposing all black rights movements today but who honors confederate slave owners are the real non-racists.

  7. #10492
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    Singapore is a dream area for an expat if you can afford the housing. Low crime, clean as hell, can find inexpensive food, transportation is amazing and everyone pretty much speaks English. On weekends, you can travel to Malaysia and have an amazing time without spending much money.

    One thing that bugs me is when people always just the past based on modernity. A ton of **** we do today will probably be frowned upon by future generations and yet, we don't even know of it, yet. It's just a horrible way of venting at our ancestors. You learn from the past but trying to depict everyone as evil for actions of the majority in the past isn't a way to live.
    This is based on the factual inaccuracy that people back then didn't know slavery was bad. They did. That's why half the states outlawed it, it's why most developed nations had outlawed it by that point. It's why there was a civil war.

  8. #10493
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Singapore was awesome. I lived there for 4-5 months over two periods. I thought about moving there as an expat but my health issues would have most likely precluded that. And in case anyone is wondering, the punishment for overstaying your visa in public caning. The punishment for illegal drugs is typically death. So if addiction doesn't get you, the government will. Anyway, it was very clean. Housing and cars were super expensive but public transportation was great and again, clean. I went to Malaysia and Indonesia while living there. Also, the food, even the fast food was incredible. Durian smells like complete **** though.

    I think it's easy for us to look back on people 200 years ago and cast judgment. We have evolved as people and gratefully so. We should realize that and be thankful whether white or black. The people from the past paid the dues so we could evolve. It's weird to me to this in 200 years how those people will look at us in history and any mistakes we make. Part of me wonders if it will be related to the devices we are using to type our BS thoughts.
    Again, stop with this bull****. People were casting judgment on slavery 200 years ago.

    We should be thankful that we have evolved sure, and thankful there were those that paid the dues so we could, but we should not be thankful for slavery or slave owners.


    You have gone from defending slave owners, to honoring them, to now wanting us to thank them. Insanity

  9. #10494
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    ....just don't call him racist, okay?

  10. #10495
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: Thankfully none, though that would not be the case if the people you are praising had their way. Consider that, you're saying we should go ahead and honor slave owners because they aren't around to hurt anyone today when that was their goal.

    Second Bolded: And yet that's exactly what you're doing. You are personally judging them as worthy of statues honoring them.

    The whole point is you bend over backwards to defend slave owners honor while jumping at the first sign to vilify black people.

    Which makes it funny when you try to claim the other side are the real racists. How disconnected from reality do you have to be to think the people opposing all black rights movements today but who honors confederate slave owners are the real non-racists.
    You keep saying "slave owners" as if slavery has to do with me wanting to honor them. I don't think being a slave owner defined who those men were. For some individuals, sure, being a slave owner was a major part of who they were but for some if you removed the slaver owner part of their life, their accomplishments shine. Nick Foles won the Eagles a Super Bowl. The first ever super bowl in Eagles history. The famous play "Philly Special/philly philly" is immortalized with a monument of him in front of the Linc now. I don't care if Foles cooked children and ate them. He stIll won the Eagles their first ever Super Bowl. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

    It's similar, to a lesser/greater, degree with men like Jackson and Lee. Without them, I'm not even sure if there's a US to divide over the civil war/slavery. They were both important figures in wars leading up to 1860.

    In my brain I'm able to differentiate between good and bad. We should be capable of honoring good deeds while learning from bad deeds. I feel like we have done the latter as a society. Not sure that anyone would support slavery in 2022. Well maybe the nba and china but i digress.

  11. #10496
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is based on the factual inaccuracy that people back then didn't know slavery was bad. They did. That's why half the states outlawed it, it's why most developed nations had outlawed it by that point. It's why there was a civil war.
    Initially, they didn't which is how slavery became such a huge deal. Many parts of the world used slavery so no, it's not factual inaccuracy. It's literally how civilizations operated. Over time, yes, it became phased out. That's called progression. You keep referencing slavery as if its an American tradition. Slavery happened before America even existed in American soil. Civil war happened many centuries after slavery began, lol.

  12. #10497
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    Initially, they didn't which is how slavery became such a huge deal. Many parts of the world used slavery so no, it's not factual inaccuracy. It's literally how civilizations operated. Over time, yes, it became phased out. That's called progression. You keep referencing slavery as if its an American tradition. Slavery happened before America even existed in American soil. Civil war happened many centuries after slavery began, lol.
    I'm aware of the history of slavery. You appear to be aware of all of it but the latter stages. By the time of the Civil War, most of the developed world had abolished slavery.

    Slavery being phased out only happened because we fought a war to forcibly phase it out, and this conversation is about whether to honor those who didn't want it phased out at all.

    Bottom line: if you claim that nobody in the world didn't know that slavery was wrong in 1861 you're factually incorrect. Much of the world did.

  13. #10498
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    You keep saying "slave owners" as if slavery has to do with me wanting to honor them. I don't think being a slave owner defined who those men were. For some individuals, sure, being a slave owner was a major part of who they were but for some if you removed the slaver owner part of their life, their accomplishments shine. Nick Foles won the Eagles a Super Bowl. The first ever super bowl in Eagles history. The famous play "Philly Special/philly philly" is immortalized with a monument of him in front of the Linc now. I don't care if Foles cooked children and ate them. He stIll won the Eagles their first ever Super Bowl. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

    It's similar, to a lesser/greater, degree with men like Jackson and Lee. Without them, I'm not even sure if there's a US to divide over the civil war/slavery. They were both important figures in wars leading up to 1860.

    In my brain I'm able to differentiate between good and bad. We should be capable of honoring good deeds while learning from bad deeds. I feel like we have done the latter as a society. Not sure that anyone would support slavery in 2022. Well maybe the nba and china but i digress.
    You don't get to separate the person from their deeds. You want to ignore the slavery part of these men. You don't get to just "remove the slave owner part of their life."

    The problem is, in your brain, you don't view slavery as that bad. Slavery supersedes running the Philly special in terms of bad/good.

    Also, as Ewing pointed out, the statues of Lee and Jackson are not honoring their accomplishments prior to 1860, they are honoring their accomplishments during the Civil War. So if you don't think it's OK to honor them for the bad deeds they did but only the good, how come you are defending honoring them for the bad deeds?

    Do you think the statues of Civil War Generals that honor them fighting to keep slavery should be up, or not?

  14. #10499
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm aware of the history of slavery. You appear to be aware of all of it but the latter stages. By the time of the Civil War, most of the developed world had abolished slavery.

    Slavery being phased out only happened because we fought a war to forcibly phase it out, and this conversation is about whether to honor those who didn't want it phased out at all.

    Bottom line: if you claim that nobody in the world didn't know that slavery was wrong in 1861 you're factually incorrect. Much of the world did.
    Slavery began way before 1861. America wasn't even America officially when the trans-Atlantic slave trade began. Stop trying to push modernity. Slavery was bad but every civilization engaged in it in some form. Bottom line: You're not better than the people of the past because you're living in a completely different time where slavery is inconceivable. It's easy for you to say something is bad hundreds of years later. For all we know, your ancestors were probably slaveowners. Did your ancestors fight against slavery? Are you going to penalize them if they didn't fight to abolish slavery?

  15. #10500
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    Got to love how the same people who say we shouldn't teach Critical Race Theory in schools want us to teach people that slave owners who fought for slavery are great men who we should thank.

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