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  1. #6166
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I visited Manhattan for my wife’s friends Game of Thrones themed wedding (which seems like the worst possible theme given the weddings in the show lol). We did go up to Staten Island, which was much more serene and I enjoyed that a lot.

    Never been to Miami/Palm Beach, but I’ve heard it’s awesome.
    I lived in Staten Island for 15 years before finally moving to Florida. Alsop went to Grad School there. Staten Island is completely different than the other four boroughs.

    Staten Island had a good deal of rural areas, especially the further out you go. It is much more laid back than any of the other boroughs. It is also very inconvenient in relation to the rest of the city. Other than ferries to lower Manhattan (20-30 minute ride for .25¢) there is no other transit connecting it with the rest of the city. Most Manhattanites have never been there, many probably don't even know what it is.

    Tremendous amounts of premium property are owned by religious groups that could make a bundle if they sold to developers. Wagner College (where I went to grad school) is located 10 minutes from the main bridge to civilization on hills overlooking the NY skyline. They get offers to sell all the time. It's also about a mile from where they filmed the Corleone compound in the Godfather. Staten Island used to have the only police precinct in NYC with a screen door (probably replaced by now)

    If anyone ever gets a chance to visit NYC and has some extra time (and a car) spend an afternoon driving around Staten Island. Be sure to go all the way out to the end where you can see Joisey. You won't believe you are still in the city.

  2. #6167
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    What if a white person wants to buy property there???

    What if one of the black families wants to sell their house to a white person???

  3. #6168
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    It was definitely some subconscious fear or distrust of Muslims, and I’ll explain why.

    You would not be wary of several casually dressed white men on that train traveling to DC even with similar backpacks.

    So why be wary of one and not the other?
    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    See this is a perfect illustration.

    It doesnt have to be based on ONLY them being middle eastern. Them being middle eastern played a (major) role in your thinking.

    In this case it is subconsciously the driving factor behind you even noticing such random **** like flying to DC and wearing backpacks (something I see basically in every single airport I've been in). In many cases it is not so clear and obvious, especially regarding black people in america.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    It didn’t play a major role in my thinking. But given the context- the mode of transportation and the area which we were traveling to, it played a role in my thinking. Again, I was fully aware of these thoughts. I was fully aware of subconscious bias and how that could be playing a role in my suspicion.

    If you saw a group of white guys in white hoods walking about town would it just be your subconscious in assuming they were potentially dangerous? Why or why not.

  4. #6169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    What if a white person wants to buy property there???

    What if one of the black families wants to sell their house to a white person???
    maybe Black Lives Matter "activists" would scream at them to give it back.

    I covered this happening already in one of these threads.

    https://nypost.com/2020/08/14/seattl...p-their-homes/
    Footage of the Wednesday demonstration posted to Twitter shows a crowd of dozens chanting “Black lives matter” before an unidentified man projects his ire toward nearby white residents — saying they are living in a historically black section of the city as another woman in the crowd yells that they should “give up” their homes, the clip shows.

    “Do you know that before your white *** came here, this was all black people?” the man says. “Do you know people like you came in here and basically bought all the land from the black people for less than what it was worth, kicked them out so you could live here? Do you know that?”

    The man continues: “’Cause if you don’t, now you f–king do — now do something about it!”
    “Give black people back their homes!” she yells. “You’re sitting there comfortably — comfortable as f—k as if they didn’t help gentrify this neighborhood! I used to live in this neighborhood, and my family was pushed out, and you’re sitting up there having a good time with your other white friends!”


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  5. #6170
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    maybe Black Lives Matter "activists" would scream at them to give it back.

    I covered this happening already in one of these threads.

    https://nypost.com/2020/08/14/seattl...p-their-homes/
    I saw that back when it was posted in the news.

    Some neighborhoods in NYC have had issues like this. There are many black neighborhoods with older homes that, once renovated and restored become beautiful homes (the legendary NY brownstone) worth a good deal of $$$$. Once this begins, locals can get pushed out. Gentrification. Good or bad???who knows.I grew up in a middle class neighborhood in Brooklyn and couldn't afford to live in the area now.

    Is it fair??? Sure. It is a business deal. Owner sets a price…buyer pays the price and renovates his new property with his money. Is it agreeable to the locals…no. They don't want to see their neighborhood change.

    Gee…… that sounds familiar. Something about the 'burbs trying to keep out low income housing.

    In Tampa, South Tampa is considered the best part of town to live in. Centrally located, streets are well treed, some cobblestoned, all the old families are down there. Beautiful area. Pretty much all white…not by design…just the way it is. There are hundreds of old, simple, even boring homes down there where people just do not sell. If they finally do sell (Almost always by inheritors), they become "knockemdowns" where the new rich owner has the homes bulldozed and fabo new homes put up in its place. There are a lot of beautiful, modern homes next to what amounts to as a simple bungalow from the '40s. A lot of people complain about that.

    It's just how things evolve. Has always happened, always will happen.

  6. #6171
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    We are not talking about every single decision someone makes. We are talking about racial discrimination. My point is that racial discrimination is not a subconscious decision on its own and if there subconscious racist behavior it’s predicated on conscious racist beliefs.

    In a weird way it’s like you are excusing racism while trying to claim how prevalent it is in our society. Earlier you compared racism to rape. Do you believe a man raping a woman is not fully aware of his decision? The definition of subconscious is- of or concerning the part of the mind of which one is not fully aware but which influences one's actions and feelings.
    If you are not fully aware of something, how can one be held accountable on it?
    But you are using this to say that every decision that is racist is predicted on a conscious decision. Sure, the majority of people who subconsciously act racist have had consciously racist thoughts and their subconscious is causing them to act on these conscious thoughts, but that doesn’t mean every decision they make that is racist is a conscious one. Since you said we are not talking about every decision someone makes I will specifics: are you saying that every racist decision someone makes is conscious?

    And no, I’m not excusing racism, I’m pointing out the prevalence to which it exists in our society. And yes, there are prejudices in our society that exist that people are not fully aware of. The reason you think it’s excusing racism is because you only see racism on an individual level, not a systemic one. But if the majority of people have a racial bias against black people, then the system is going to disproportionately negatively affect them, even if nobody working within the system is fully aware they ar shaving this disproportionately negative impact. This it’s not about trying to fix one racist person’s thoughts as you seem to keep reducing it down to, it’s about ensuring a system that identifies how this prejudice manifests and striving to eliminate it on a systemic level.

  7. #6172
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    It didn’t play a major role in my thinking. But given the context- the mode of transportation and the area which we were traveling to, it played a role in my thinking. Again, I was fully aware of these thoughts. I was fully aware of subconscious bias and how that could be playing a role in my suspicion.

    If you saw a group of white guys in white hoods walking about town would it just be your subconscious in assuming they were potentially dangerous? Why or why not.
    But look at the specificity with which it’s reasonable to assume white guys are a threat compared to your generalization of the Muslim guys. White hoods vs simply being Muslim on a plane with a backpack. Your white guys need a very specific and well known other negative indicator (hoods).

    Not to mention the % of white guys who walk around in white hoods who are racist is a FAR higher % if Muslims who board planes who hijack and blow them up. That is again more of your bias. If all one needs to do is board a plane for you to be suspicious despite only one incident of that incredibly broad stereotype happening 19 years ago... that’s subconscious bias my friend.

  8. #6173
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    Back in the 80s my brother was in the Peace Corps in Africa, working in a former French colony. I visited him for a month and, of course, there WE were the minority. However, most people there liked Americans and despised the French. Why? Because all they knew of the French was they used to rule their country and the only Americans they ever saw were Peace Corps volunteers. They could even tell in short order by looking at a white person, how they dressed, how they carried themselves, whether they were French or American.

    Understandable given their experience, right? French ruled them, Americans helped them. So was this learned behavior a conscious or sub conscious decision?
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  9. #6174
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Back in the 80s my brother was in the Peace Corps in Africa, working in a former French colony. I visited him for a month and, of course, there WE were the minority. However, most people there liked Americans and despised the French. Why? Because all they knew of the French was they used to rule their country and the only Americans they ever saw were Peace Corps volunteers. They could even tell in short order by looking at a white person, how they dressed, how they carried themselves, whether they were French or American.

    Understandable given their experience, right? French ruled them, Americans helped them. So was this learned behavior a conscious or sub conscious decision?
    Would they still look at the Frenchies the same way 150 years later????

  10. #6175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    Would they still look at the Frenchies the same way 150 years later????
    I don't know....when I was there they'd had their independence 25 years at that point and still did

    but then it's the French, too
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  11. #6176
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I don't know....when I was there they'd had their independence 25 years at that point and still did

    but then it's the French, too
    I’m sure many of them still remember French rule if it was 25 years ago at that time. But if the next generation and the next all had a general distrust of the French despite not having ever interacted with a French person, yes that’s subconscious bias.

  12. #6177
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I’m sure many of them still remember French rule if it was 25 years ago at that time. But if the next generation and the next all had a general distrust of the French despite not having ever interacted with a French person, yes that’s subconscious bias.
    Which I believe we do not have here.

    All the new $100 buzz words……

    Critical Race Theory
    Intersectionality
    Systemic Racism

    ……that no one can clearly explain, let alone prove, allows one to claim bias anytime they want to and no one can object to it.

    That's why it will never improve.

  13. #6178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    What if a white person wants to buy property there???

    What if one of the black families wants to sell their house to a white person???
    I’d call the white family anarchists, act like they were going to destroy the town, and yell some nonsense about property values


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  14. #6179
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    We are not talking about every single decision someone makes. We are talking about racial discrimination. My point is that racial discrimination is not a subconscious decision on its own and if there subconscious racist behavior it’s predicated on conscious racist beliefs.

    In a weird way it’s like you are excusing racism while trying to claim how prevalent it is in our society. Earlier you compared racism to rape. Do you believe a man raping a woman is not fully aware of his decision? The definition of subconscious is- of or concerning the part of the mind of which one is not fully aware but which influences one's actions and feelings.
    If you are not fully aware of something, how can one be held accountable on it?
    That's just fundamentally untrue. It shows a basic lack of understanding of human behavior and the brain.

    Well we shouldn't hold individuals responsible for unconscious racism. We need stuctural and cultural change to impact those things. Do you honeslty think kids growing up today have the same connection between homosexually and physical weakness That we had growing up. Being "gay", or a "******," meant you were weak or a "*****." Those connections that become unconscious associations. We meet someone who is gay and assume not as strong. These unconscious associations are mitigated when as a culture we break those associations and stop teaching them. They are learned and ingrained.

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  15. #6180
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I’m sure many of them still remember French rule if it was 25 years ago at that time. But if the next generation and the next all had a general distrust of the French despite not having ever interacted with a French person, yes that’s subconscious bias.
    Sad thing being, while they have an elected president, he's really an 'elected president'...as in, yeah, really a dictator....so their independence is really 'independence' anyway. At the time I was there, the only paved roads in the country...led from the capital city to one of the 'president's' houses. When I landed, the plane didn't taxi up to the terminal, it stopped on the runway, eventually a couple buses pulled up and as we exited the plane to board a bus, we walked thru a dozen military dudes holding machine guns...turned out there'd been a recent coup attempt....so I was like 'OK then, welcome to Gabon'
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

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