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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    He was 10th in the NBA in free throws attempted that season.





    He was shooting 36% on 3.5 attempts per game as a 21 year old. I don't know if we could say he's not capable based on that.
    You're not looking at the context behind it. Yes, he was 11th in FTA but his FTr was low. When you're taking 19 shots, you should be getting to the FT line more often so you can get easier points. This is likely because Wiggins just took ineffective and tough shots rather than getting to the paint or forcing defenders to make a mistake. It has a lot to do with experience so I'm not completely faulting Wiggins but at the end of the day, he's still taking 19 shots so it's on him to figure that out. Not to mention that this was one of the highest FTr seasons of his career so throughout his career, he's been terrible at getting to the line.


    Regarding his three point shooting, dude, he is a guard. He's got the ball more than any other player on his team. That's not enough 3PA in today's game. Look at how ineffective DeRozan gets in the playoffs when teams start pushing out his midrange game. League average is near 36% for 3P% but that includes all positions. I'd reckon the guard position alone reaches around 38%. Wiggins isn't shooting enough and his career is below average in terms of shooting the ball.


    So if you're saying there isn't enough evidence to say if he is capable or not, I don't think you remember the scouting report on him in 2014 when his weaknesses were: Confidence, taking tough shots, and lacking passion/assertiveness. Those were always evident in his game before he stepped into the NBA so while I wouldn't say he won't be a decent shooter eventually, thus far, he hasn't proven he can at all.

    My point is if you're taking 19 shots per game and you can't get to the FT line as much as others can, then you're just taking ineffective shots that the other teams want you to take. In today's game, your primary ball handler/scorer needs to be able to sink the three because there is a lot of screening involved and if you can't sink the three, the other team has no reason to fight through it. Wiggins lack of shooting hurts his team and taking 19 shots + doing not much else on the court while playing 37 minutes per game is a losing basketball player.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    You're not looking at the context behind it. Yes, he was 11th in FTA but his FTr was low. When you're taking 19 shots, you should be getting to the FT line more often so you can get easier points. This is likely because Wiggins just took ineffective and tough shots rather than getting to the paint or forcing defenders to make a mistake. It has a lot to do with experience so I'm not completely faulting Wiggins but at the end of the day, he's still taking 19 shots so it's on him to figure that out. Not to mention that this was one of the highest FTr seasons of his career so throughout his career, he's been terrible at getting to the line.


    Regarding his three point shooting, dude, he is a guard. He's got the ball more than any other player on his team. That's not enough 3PA in today's game. Look at how ineffective DeRozan gets in the playoffs when teams start pushing out his midrange game. League average is near 36% for 3P% but that includes all positions. I'd reckon the guard position alone reaches around 38%. Wiggins isn't shooting enough and his career is below average in terms of shooting the ball.


    So if you're saying there isn't enough evidence to say if he is capable or not, I don't think you remember the scouting report on him in 2014 when his weaknesses were: Confidence, taking tough shots, and lacking passion/assertiveness. Those were always evident in his game before he stepped into the NBA so while I wouldn't say he won't be a decent shooter eventually, thus far, he hasn't proven he can at all.

    My point is if you're taking 19 shots per game and you can't get to the FT line as much as others can, then you're just taking ineffective shots that the other teams want you to take. In today's game, your primary ball handler/scorer needs to be able to sink the three because there is a lot of screening involved and if you can't sink the three, the other team has no reason to fight through it. Wiggins lack of shooting hurts his team and taking 19 shots + doing not much else on the court while playing 37 minutes per game is a losing basketball player.
    You said he wasn't capable of shooting but by your own numbers he was league average on 3.5 attempts per game. You said he wasn't capable of getting to the free throw line despite the fact that he was 10th in the NBA in free throw attempts as a 21 year old.

    Agree to disagree on this one.


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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    You said he wasn't capable of shooting but by your own numbers he was league average on 3.5 attempts per game. You said he wasn't capable of getting to the free throw line despite the fact that he was 10th in the NBA in free throw attempts as a 21 year old.

    Agree to disagree on this one.
    Wow, you're a fiesty one aren't ya?

    3.5 attempts per game because that includes ALL players... Surely a center shouldn't be be expected to take 3.5 threes per game so when you average out the shooting for guards+centers, guards are taking more of the threes.

    Ex: One center takes 2 threes per game, one guard takes 8 threes per game. The average would be 5 threes per game.

    Here is my point... If you were truly interested in finding out the answer to this, you would have done the research yourself instead of trying for the 'gotcha' moments despite knowing you are wrong.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...als_stats::fg3

    This is Wiggins 3PA. He ranked 80th. Almost everyone ahead of him are wings except for about 5-7 centers/power forwards. That means over 70 players playing the same position as Wiggins shot more threes than him. And btw, this is 3PA in the totality, not per game. He played all 82 games.




    This is Wiggins FGA. He ranked 7th.


    Here is his three point attempts ratio.



    Most players of similar positions have 2-3x his 3PAr.


    So I'm not sure what you're agreeing to disagree here other than you are wrong.

    I guess I should word things differently when replying to you as it seems you are taking the words literally. Yes, I said he can't get to the FT line. But all of that is relative. Obviously Wiggins gets to the FT line since 1 FTA for the season qualifies as getting to the FT line. But relative to others as well as how many shots he takes, he's poor at getting to the FT line. This despite the fact that he isn't a shooter and primarily a mid-range player so all that tells me is he's not getting more efficient shots and teams aren't fouling him as much as they should because he settles for tough shots.

  4. #34
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    The issue is he settles too much but if you look at those first two seasons his FTR is over .4 which is actually pretty good. The issue is by year 3 it's dropped down almost 9% from the year prior. He actually dropped off even more after year 3 and hasn't been above .3 FTR since that 3rd season.

    Part of the issue is he started out as a willing attacker and now settles more often instead.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 05-27-2020 at 01:56 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    The issue is he settles too much but if you look at those first two seasons his FTR is over .4 which is actually pretty good. The issue is by year 3 it's dropped down almost 8% from the year prior. He actually dropped off even more after year 3 and hasn't been above .3 FTR since that 3rd season.

    Part of the issue is he started out as a willing attacker and now settles more often instead.
    And part of that is he just doesn't seem to care enough. When you're not putting as much effort as you should, refs notice it and just hold the whistle. I'm guessing his higher FTr in the beginning had a lot to do with him just trying to prove others wrong and the refs allowing him to get the calls since he was at that point, incredibly hyped up. But once he got complacent and knew he would be getting paid regardless, his game never took off the way others expected. Scouts said the same thing pre-draft:

    Poor shot selection
    Lack of range
    Lack of confidence/leadership
    Lack of passion


    I don't believe Wiggins wanted to be a basketball player as much as he saw it as a way to become wealthy.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    And part of that is he just doesn't seem to care enough. When you're not putting as much effort as you should, refs notice it and just hold the whistle. I'm guessing his higher FTr in the beginning had a lot to do with him just trying to prove others wrong and the refs allowing him to get the calls since he was at that point, incredibly hyped up. But once he got complacent and knew he would be getting paid regardless, his game never took off the way others expected. Scouts said the same thing pre-draft:

    Poor shot selection
    Lack of range
    Lack of confidence/leadership
    Lack of passion


    I don't believe Wiggins wanted to be a basketball player as much as he saw it as a way to become wealthy.
    I think it is a mix of some things, you mention his passion/effort and so on which I think is part. I also don't think he is a great decision maker and poor shot selection is big. In the end he just never really developed and some would argue took a step back from that attacking type nature he at least has the ability for as he showed early.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    Wow, you're a fiesty one aren't ya?
    Maybe back when I first joined PSD a million years ago. Now I have two kids and I like to think I've mellowed out. Maybe not as much as I thought?

    3.5 attempts per game because that includes ALL players... Surely a center shouldn't be be expected to take 3.5 threes per game so when you average out the shooting for guards+centers, guards are taking more of the threes.

    Ex: One center takes 2 threes per game, one guard takes 8 threes per game. The average would be 5 threes per game.
    I completely agree with your point here a top wing player in today's game should shoot more 3's per game.

    Here is my point... If you were truly interested in finding out the answer to this, you would have done the research yourself instead of trying for the 'gotcha' moments despite knowing you are wrong.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...als_stats::fg3

    This is Wiggins 3PA. He ranked 80th. Almost everyone ahead of him are wings except for about 5-7 centers/power forwards. That means over 70 players playing the same position as Wiggins shot more threes than him. And btw, this is 3PA in the totality, not per game. He played all 82 games.




    This is Wiggins FGA. He ranked 7th.


    Here is his three point attempts ratio.



    Most players of similar positions have 2-3x his 3PAr.


    So I'm not sure what you're agreeing to disagree here other than you are wrong.
    At the risk of sounding feisty again this is where you are wrong. You said he's not capable of making 3's. Two very simple rebuttals:

    #1.) I disagree that a league average shooter should be described as incapable of making 3's especially considering all the research that has been done regarding the efficiency of 3's. That's why they have skyrocketed in volume. I'm sure you know that. If every shot Wiggins took was a 3pt shot and he made 36% of them he would be an efficient player. We both know that.

    #2.) Lack of volume does not mean lack of ability.

    You went through a lot of trouble with screenshots and researched information to prove to me that Wiggins didn't shoot enough 3's compared to the other guards in the league. Both as a raw total and as a ratio compared to his overall field goal attempts. I agree with you. So what? Neither did any player back in the 80s or 90s. That doesn't prove there were no capable shooters.

    I guess I should word things differently when replying to you as it seems you are taking the words literally. Yes, I said he can't get to the FT line. But all of that is relative. Obviously Wiggins gets to the FT line since 1 FTA for the season qualifies as getting to the FT line. But relative to others as well as how many shots he takes, he's poor at getting to the FT line. This despite the fact that he isn't a shooter and primarily a mid-range player so all that tells me is he's not getting more efficient shots and teams aren't fouling him as much as they should because he settles for tough shots.
    I think the fundamental difference between our opinions here is that you seem to be willing to offer no room for growth even though Wiggins was 21 at the time. I remember reading about it in Bill Simmons book about how star wing players tend to breakout at around 22 years old and their 3/4th year. He gave great examples of Kobe/T-Mac/Wade/DT and how their scoring and free throw attempts all spiked as they figured out how to draw fouls too. If you look Wiggins actually had a slighter FTr at the same age.

    Kobe at 21 = .341
    Tmac at 21 = .340
    Wiggins at 21 = .345

    As an overall player Wiggins isn't close to the same tier as those players. But at the time it would be reasonable to assume that he would be able to keep his pace or improve getting to the line. I will end with this. If you noticed I didn't touch any of your other comments about Wiggins. I overwhelmingly agree with you. He has serious flaws. I thought as a 3rd option with Butler and Towns the Wolves would be good. I was wrong and all I took issue with on your post was you saying wasn't even capable of making 3's or getting to the free throw line.

    Would he have been a more efficient player if he improved his ratio of 3pt to fga and stopped shooting mid-range shots? Definitely.

    Would he have been a better player if he was able to improve his FTr? Definitely.

    However, none of that changes my opinion that a league average shooter can make 3's and ranking 10th in raw free throw attempts prove you can get to the free throw line. He's not great at either but he was capable of both.
    Last edited by KnicksorBust; 05-27-2020 at 04:15 PM.


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  8. #38
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    Does Butler have the same personality as MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I'm one of the crazy ones that thought him on the T-Wolves would work. Two star wings and a star big.
    They did work til Jimmy quit. That team was pretty good until he got hurt at the end of the year. Then he quit on them. I really think the Sixers made a huge mistake in not doing everything they could to bring Jimmy back. I think they should have recognized him as there # 2 and built around Joel and Jimmy


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    They did work til Jimmy quit. That team was pretty good until he got hurt at the end of the year. Then he quit on them. I really think the Sixers made a huge mistake in not doing everything they could to bring Jimmy back. I think they should have recognized him as there # 2 and built around Joel and Jimmy


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    Tough call. Simmons is so much younger and is a special player.


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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Butler
    Wiggins
    I should ban you for this

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Maybe back when I first joined PSD a million years ago. Now I have two kids and I like to think I've mellowed out. Maybe not as much as I thought?



    I completely agree with your point here a top wing player in today's game should shoot more 3's per game.



    At the risk of sounding feisty again this is where you are wrong. You said he's not capable of making 3's. Two very simple rebuttals:

    #1.) I disagree that a league average shooter should be described as incapable of making 3's especially considering all the research that has been done regarding the efficiency of 3's. That's why they have skyrocketed in volume. I'm sure you know that. If every shot Wiggins took was a 3pt shot and he made 36% of them he would be an efficient player. We both know that.

    #2.) Lack of volume does not mean lack of ability.

    You went through a lot of trouble with screenshots and researched information to prove to me that Wiggins didn't shoot enough 3's compared to the other guards in the league. Both as a raw total and as a ratio compared to his overall field goal attempts. I agree with you. So what? Neither did any player back in the 80s or 90s. That doesn't prove there were no capable shooters.



    I think the fundamental difference between our opinions here is that you seem to be willing to offer no room for growth even though Wiggins was 21 at the time. I remember reading about it in Bill Simmons book about how star wing players tend to breakout at around 22 years old and their 3/4th year. He gave great examples of Kobe/T-Mac/Wade/DT and how their scoring and free throw attempts all spiked as they figured out how to draw fouls too. If you look Wiggins actually had a slighter FTr at the same age.

    Kobe at 21 = .341
    Tmac at 21 = .340
    Wiggins at 21 = .345

    As an overall player Wiggins isn't close to the same tier as those players. But at the time it would be reasonable to assume that he would be able to keep his pace or improve getting to the line. I will end with this. If you noticed I didn't touch any of your other comments about Wiggins. I overwhelmingly agree with you. He has serious flaws. I thought as a 3rd option with Butler and Towns the Wolves would be good. I was wrong and all I took issue with on your post was you saying wasn't even capable of making 3's or getting to the free throw line.

    Would he have been a more efficient player if he improved his ratio of 3pt to fga and stopped shooting mid-range shots? Definitely.

    Would he have been a better player if he was able to improve his FTr? Definitely.

    However, none of that changes my opinion that a league average shooter can make 3's and ranking 10th in raw free throw attempts prove you can get to the free throw line. He's not great at either but he was capable of both.
    about mid-way through Wiggins third season, I called him out as a terrible player. And that was fine, he was being paid rookie scale wages. The biggest worry us Wolves fans had, which was realized, was our stupid FO saw 20 ppg and his age, and would disregard allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the other factors, and intangibles he lacked, and give him the max. The moment they did, Wolves fans turned on him. Me included. Not his fault per say, but it was obvious at that point until he was gone, the Wolves were hamstringed. It was so bad, we are more than happy to take a flawed Russell in return making similar money because of the fact that Russell is way better, and a far better fit.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    about mid-way through Wiggins third season, I called him out as a terrible player. And that was fine, he was being paid rookie scale wages. The biggest worry us Wolves fans had, which was realized, was our stupid FO saw 20 ppg and his age, and would disregard allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the other factors, and intangibles he lacked, and give him the max. The moment they did, Wolves fans turned on him. Me included. Not his fault per say, but it was obvious at that point until he was gone, the Wolves were hamstringed. It was so bad, we are more than happy to take a flawed Russell in return making similar money because of the fact that Russell is way better, and a far better fit.
    I tried to search for old wiggins posts but had no luck. If you can use your wizard skills I would love to read posts from that year from you or me.


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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Tough call. Simmons is so much younger and is a special player.
    Hes a brick layer


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Hes a brick layer


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    6'10 PG who shoots 55% from the field and plays elite defense... special player.


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  15. #45
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    Does Butler have the same personality as MJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    6'10 PG who shoots 55% from the field and plays elite defense... special player.
    PGs takes shots outside the paint. Hes a point forward playing out of position. He really should mostly be the primary ball handler when they are pushing pace like Dray. His numbers would go down but it would be best for the team. He will never move off the point though and he cripples there half court offense when it matters

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    Last edited by ewing; 05-28-2020 at 08:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

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