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View Poll Results: Can a player HURT their legacy by playing past their prime?

Voters
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  • Yes a lot

    1 11.11%
  • Yes a little

    2 22.22%
  • Not at all

    6 66.67%
  • Only Dwight Howard

    0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Results 106 to 120 of 156
  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    His supporting cast weren’t laughable. They weren’t great but were not laughable all. I think not winning a play off series before Spree and Sammy is a
    legit criticism
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It's certainly a legit criticism. At the same time though, which playoff series do you think he should have won?


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    My point wasn't whether it was a fair assessment of Dirk that he was soft or a choker, but that it was the narrative of the time.

    Here are some articles talking about it:

    http://dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1002652

    https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2014/4...developed-1998


    There was definitely a perception he was a soft European player that couldn't win a ring.
    MJ was already the best talent the game had seen and was labeled the same. While I understand your point, Dirk would have been seen more like Barkley than Malone had he not won a ring. A player who beasted in the playoffs for the most part, but never had the right team or the right streak to overcome.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    To me, the Wolves are one of the worst franchises out there. Maybe a T-Wolves fan can chime in but they have never been good at scouting talent and screwed up by trading Ray Allen for Marbury. I get the understanding for it at that time but looking back, that was their first big mistake. Peak Ray Allen and KG would have made some noise in the West. Defensively and offensively, the Wolves didn't have much to work with outside of KG. I thought Sprewell elevated that team a lot but he was getting older and it was a bit too late to build upon that. The second mistake was overpaying for KG. I get why they did it but it just limited their options. KG did the best he could with what he had but when you take a look at what his other contemporaries had in terms of Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, etc., in their early career, it's tough to fault KG for their lack of success.

    Boston's defensive mindset took a direct change when in 07-08, they got KG and Thibodeau. No doubt, the Celtics had plenty of good defenders but KG changed the culture and was the anchor of their defense. He deserves a boatload of credit for establishing that Celtics as an elite defensive team.

    I'm just not a fan of KG outside of the court. He's annoying and seems to be a phony tough guy.
    Oh we suck at literally every portion of being a pro team.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    His supporting cast weren’t laughable. They weren’t great but were not laughable all. I think not winning a play off series before Spree and Sammy is a
    legit criticism
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    They sere very bad. Outside of 2003-04 his rosters were either below average to really bad. But, he was paid to overcome, and his FO was too stupid to give him the right fit of players, instead just making mistake after mistake.

  5. #110
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    In fairness to MIN, after the Joe Smith debacle I don't think they ever had a chance.

    As a total side note, in looking at their draft history I think there's a not that people forget from he KG to Boston trade. In the previously executed Ricky Davis/Wally trade BOS had acquired a 1st rounder from MIN. BOS gave that pick back to them. That pick ended up being #6 overall in 2009. Because it was MIN acquiring their own pick back I think people forget that they not only got Al Jefferson in that deal, but also a top 6 draft pick.

    In Timberwolves fashion they took Johnny Flynn with that pick lol. Sorry Hawk


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  6. #111
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    So ... the answer to the OP is YES.

    Barry Bonds is a clear example. His performance didn't fall off but his legacy definitely did.

  7. #112
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    Barry Bonds had an OPS over 1000 his last year. He never played past being an elite hitter because he was one up to 42. His legacy fell off because people "found out" that he used roids (in reality they knew but the fake outrage didn't come until later). That's an entirely different situation than playing past the point of being elite or even good anymore.


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    In fairness to MIN, after the Joe Smith debacle I don't think they ever had a chance.

    As a total side note, in looking at their draft history I think there's a not that people forget from he KG to Boston trade. In the previously executed Ricky Davis/Wally trade BOS had acquired a 1st rounder from MIN. BOS gave that pick back to them. That pick ended up being #6 overall in 2009. Because it was MIN acquiring their own pick back I think people forget that they not only got Al Jefferson in that deal, but also a top 6 draft pick.

    In Timberwolves fashion they took Johnny Flynn with that pick lol. Sorry Hawk
    It's tough being a Wolves fan dude.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    What about if we took away Dirk's 2011 ring?
    What does that even mean?
    Is Dirk the same player but Lebron doesn't choke and Heat win?
    This doesn't affect Dirk.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    It's certainly a legit criticism. At the same time though, which playoff series do you think he should have won?
    I will be honest. I didn't care enough about the team to be able to recall each series. I do remember the teams though and for a good # of years the Wolves were a deep team. KG was there only superstar but If KG is a superstar and a guy that deserves to be thought of with Barkley, Malone, and Dirk I think he wins a playoff series with Terrell Brandon, Wally, Anthony Peeler, Rasho, Joe Smith, Bobby Jackson, Milik Sealey, etc... These were decent supporting casts. They weren't going to win a title but they weren't laughable at all and they got bounced on the first round 7 years in a row.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    They sere very bad. Outside of 2003-04 his rosters were either below average to really bad. But, he was paid to overcome, and his FO was too stupid to give him the right fit of players, instead just making mistake after mistake.
    They are only really bad if KG isn't an MVP level player. Brandon was damn good, Wally could ball, guy like Hoberg, Peeler, Hudson. The teams weren't going to win a title but they should have won something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    It's certainly a legit criticism. At the same time though, which playoff series do you think he should have won?
    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I will be honest. I didn't care enough about the team to be able to recall each series. I do remember the teams though and for a good # of years the Wolves were a deep team. KG was there only superstar but If KG is a superstar and a guy that deserves to be thought of with Barkley, Malone, and Dirk I think he wins a playoff series with Terrell Brandon, Wally, Anthony Peeler, Rasho, Joe Smith, Bobby Jackson, Milik Sealey, etc... These were decent supporting casts. They weren't going to win a title but they weren't laughable at all and they got bounced on the first round 7 years in a row.
    97 = Swept by Rockets
    Garnett TS% under 50% and only took 3 FTs in 125 minutes played.

    98 = Lost 3-2 to Sonics
    Garnett went 3-11 for 7 points with 10 turnovers in 43 minutes played in the deciding game 5

    99 = Lost 3-1 to the Spurs
    Garnett went 6-20 with a +/- of -6 in the clinching game 4 that they lost by 7.

    00 = Lost 3-1 to the Blazers
    Garnett went 5-20 in the clinching game 4 and only shot 38.5% for the whole series from the field

    01 = Lost 3-1 to the Spurs
    Garnett actually played great this series. Brandon and Peeler were ******* and the Spurs destroyed them from the 3pt line.

    02 = Swept by the Mavs
    Garnett got massively outplayed by Dirk
    Dirk = 33ppg / 16rpg / 3spg on shooting splits of 53% / 73% / 89%
    Dirk hit 8 of 11 threes and got to the free throw line 36 times in 3 games.
    KG = 24ppg on 43% from the field with 12 turnovers in 3 games and clearly had no answer on the other end.

    03 = Lost 4-2 to the Lakers
    Played amazing in games 2 and 3 to steal those games. Then Shaq and Kobe just murdered him.

    He was the underdog in every series and I feel like everyone of those series is a tough matchup for him but he underachieved in 4 of the 7.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    Barry Bonds had an OPS over 1000 his last year. He never played past being an elite hitter because he was one up to 42. His legacy fell off because people "found out" that he used roids (in reality they knew but the fake outrage didn't come until later). That's an entirely different situation than playing past the point of being elite or even good anymore.
    But had he retired 3 years earlier his legacy would not have taken the hit.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    97 = Swept by Rockets
    Garnett TS% under 50% and only took 3 FTs in 125 minutes played.

    98 = Lost 3-2 to Sonics
    Garnett went 3-11 for 7 points with 10 turnovers in 43 minutes played in the deciding game 5

    99 = Lost 3-1 to the Spurs
    Garnett went 6-20 with a +/- of -6 in the clinching game 4 that they lost by 7.

    00 = Lost 3-1 to the Blazers
    Garnett went 5-20 in the clinching game 4 and only shot 38.5% for the whole series from the field

    01 = Lost 3-1 to the Spurs
    Garnett actually played great this series. Brandon and Peeler were ******* and the Spurs destroyed them from the 3pt line.

    02 = Swept by the Mavs
    Garnett got massively outplayed by Dirk
    Dirk = 33ppg / 16rpg / 3spg on shooting splits of 53% / 73% / 89%
    Dirk hit 8 of 11 threes and got to the free throw line 36 times in 3 games.
    KG = 24ppg on 43% from the field with 12 turnovers in 3 games and clearly had no answer on the other end.

    03 = Lost 4-2 to the Lakers
    Played amazing in games 2 and 3 to steal those games. Then Shaq and Kobe just murdered him.

    He was the underdog in every series and I feel like everyone of those series is a tough matchup for him but he underachieved in 4 of the 7.
    Since I go back and forth on KG I want to defend him here for a second.

    As you point out, he was an underdog in literally every single one of those series. And realistically, I don't care how good people think Brandon, Wally and Co. were, those teams still had no chance at beating the Spurs, Lakers or 00's Blazers.

    So right there is 4/7 playoff series where it is completely unrealistic to blame him for losing. So the other 3 were 2 of them when KG was 20 and 21 years old and a series against Dallas where he was outplayed by Dirk.

    As for the numbers, I agree they weren't great. But I'd argue given how not great the rest of his team was, it's a lot easier to shut down a top player when you don't have to worry about anyone else.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Since I go back and forth on KG I want to defend him here for a second.

    As you point out, he was an underdog in literally every single one of those series. And realistically, I don't care how good people think Brandon, Wally and Co. were, those teams still had no chance at beating the Spurs, Lakers or 00's Blazers.

    So right there is 4/7 playoff series where it is completely unrealistic to blame him for losing. So the other 3 were 2 of them when KG was 20 and 21 years old and a series against Dallas where he was outplayed by Dirk.

    As for the numbers, I agree they weren't great. But I'd argue given how not great the rest of his team was, it's a lot easier to shut down a top player when you don't have to worry about anyone else.
    I actually agree with you. I don't really care how he played when he was 21 years old against Prime Payton/Kemp or D-Rob/Duncan with no help. That's why I don't hold LeBron's first 7 years against him or Jordan's. Achieving success as a young player is so difficult in the NBA.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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