Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





View Poll Results: Can a player HURT their legacy by playing past their prime?

Voters
9. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes a lot

    1 11.11%
  • Yes a little

    2 22.22%
  • Not at all

    6 66.67%
  • Only Dwight Howard

    0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 156
  1. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    27,367
    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Melo is a best example right now. Derron Williams also comes to mind. Moses probably hurt himself


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Okay so this is why I made the thread because I don't understand how that works.

    When Melo was on the Knicks where would you have put him on an all-time list? Maybe 55?

    After Melo was traded and had unsuccessful seasons with the Thunder and Rockets where would you put him on an all-time list? 70? 80?

    I guess I don't understand how someone could pass Melo because he had a bad year or two as a 3rd option past his prime.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    27,367
    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    dirks final few seasons were pretty bad and it didnt matter. Same with Nash i believe.
    Exactly. I agree with you. Dirk had a great prime. He has one of the strongest finals MVP awards ever. He climbed up the ladder as far as he was going to go and then has been slowly fading in performance for the last 5 years. However, his spot imo hasn't changed. He hit his best ranking and then flatlined around 2016. If he plays another 3 years and is the 12th man on the team and gets 2mpg that wouldn't make me drop him on my rankings.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    27,367
    Quote Originally Posted by boarman1 View Post
    It doesn't take away from their stats, but fans will always have a lasting image and impression on a player when they retire

    Allen Iverson, Shaq, and Paul Pierce are examples of guys who milked the last bit of their NBA talent. It's not a bad thing, but it's a weird thing to see great players become role players

    It just doesn't sit right for me
    Hakeem on the Raps is one of the weirdest of all-time for me.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    33,376
    It depends on what "their prime" means. If a players best year is their rookie year, then that year was their prime year, but "in their prime" usually means late 20s to very early 30s.

    If we use the 2nd definition then Howards "prime years" were on 3 different teams and greatness was not what anybody would use to describe them.

    Some players, even continuing long after their game has fallen off considerably, don't lose their star reputation by accepting their reduced role and don't suffer for continuing past their prime. I think Kobe hurt his a little toward the end, and Jordan too, though not enough to keep them off all-time lists. While other players, by continuing on and becoming petulant or refusing to alter their games to suit their skill set or their teams then rightly lose in overall reputation.

    There is also always the possibility that a player, by staying in the league, can do something specifically very stupid that tarnishes everything before it. I used Barry Bonds as an example ... he was a lock for the hall of fame before the last 4 years of his career.

    There is also the possibility of a player being great early then suffering injuries that derail their career. Gail Sayers was so spectacular his reputation survived the injuries, but he also retired. Brandon Roy is mostly remembered for his injuries and not how great a player he was growing into being before he got hurt.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    111,981
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Exactly. I agree with you. Dirk had a great prime. He has one of the strongest finals MVP awards ever. He climbed up the ladder as far as he was going to go and then has been slowly fading in performance for the last 5 years. However, his spot imo hasn't changed. He hit his best ranking and then flatlined around 2016. If he plays another 3 years and is the 12th man on the team and gets 2mpg that wouldn't make me drop him on my rankings.
    there is 1 thing that has always bothered me... we all know lebron choked against Dallas... best player in the world at the time you cant lose that finals.... the thing is all you hear is how lebron lost it but what gets negated is how dirk/terry etc won it. Its a pretty ****** thing... dirk was amazing.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    GMT +2
    Posts
    13,802
    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Melo is a best example right now. Derron Williams also comes to mind. Moses probably hurt himself

    These are players that were top 10 in the league at their peak. I think that will always be recognized.

    It's one thing to have ignorant people who don't know their **** remember these guys as non-factors at a later age and it's another to say that their legacy is hurt. When you ask people who the best PGs were in the 2008-2012 period, the names are Deron Williams and Chris Paul, with Derrick Rose being on the rise. There's no other way to state this.
    If at the same time someone claims that Shaq and Antwan Jamison weren't any good because they saw him after their 30s, past their best, then it makes these guys clueless and it doesn't really kill much of their legacy.

    Unless by legacy you think of what the average ignorant Joe thinks when he hears a player's name. A player's lasting legacy is built by itself, it's irrelevant what people think of them. If people think that a player wasn't as great in his prime because he wasn't still in his prime when he was 36, best thing to do is ignore them.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    parts unknown
    Posts
    47,065
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Okay so this is why I made the thread because I don't understand how that works.

    When Melo was on the Knicks where would you have put him on an all-time list? Maybe 55?

    After Melo was traded and had unsuccessful seasons with the Thunder and Rockets where would you put him on an all-time list? 70? 80?

    I guess I don't understand how someone could pass Melo because he had a bad year or two as a 3rd option past his prime.
    Idk whet number is he was or is. I do know 7 years ago if a bunch of people on the internet were talking about him it would be weird if anyone to said he was always a negative. If someone did say that they probably would get roasted. Today....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Rep Power: 0




    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    2,354
    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    See the guy killed his rep. He is a 10 time all star and 7 time all NBA player and you are here saying he was never anything in the league. I’m not even a fan but he is a HOFer.

    Should have retired about 5 years ago


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by xxplayerxx23 View Post
    “Never been anything” lol come on now. He’s a sure fire HOF.
    You guys are making my point for me. These last years don't take him outta the HOF, its not like "oh, Melo played himself right outta the HOF those last few seasons".

    He'll be remembered for what he was a one way scorer who can't lead a team to anything, that hasn't changed these last few seasons.

    Just sidebar here, its the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF. Melo was a stud in college and has been a great Olympian, top to bottom he has a good basketball résumé. When I say he hasn't been anything, I'm speaking in comparison to the greats, it's not like he's a 3 time champion and 5 time MVP then fell off to his last few seasons, I mean the dude has never even played in an NBA finals game, gimme a break here.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    27,367
    Some players, even continuing long after their game has fallen off considerably, don't lose their star reputation by accepting their reduced role and don't suffer for continuing past their prime. I think Kobe hurt his a little toward the end, and Jordan too, though not enough to keep them off all-time lists. While other players, by continuing on and becoming petulant or refusing to alter their games to suit their skill set or their teams then rightly lose in overall reputation.
    So I think Kobe and Jordan are the perfect examples of how the twilight seasons are irrelevant. The most popular debate on ESPN these days is LeBron vs. Jordan and I haven't heard anyone bring up the Wizards. Not even the people that want to say LeBron are like "well look at MJ when he was 40 years old, that should knock him down to #2."

    There is also always the possibility that a player, by staying in the league, can do something specifically very stupid that tarnishes everything before it. I used Barry Bonds as an example ... he was a lock for the hall of fame before the last 4 years of his career.
    You are right but the Bonds argument is steroids not on the field performance.

    There is also the possibility of a player being great early then suffering injuries that derail their career. Gail Sayers was so spectacular his reputation survived the injuries, but he also retired. Brandon Roy is mostly remembered for his injuries and not how great a player he was growing into being before he got hurt.
    Perception and reality are different things though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    It depends on what "their prime" means. If a players best year is their rookie year, then that year was their prime year, but "in their prime" usually means late 20s to very early 30s.

    If we use the 2nd definition then Howards "prime years" were on 3 different teams and greatness was not what anybody would use to describe them.
    I just use "prime" to mean a series of years where a player was at or near their highest level of play. "Peak" play is usually a smaller window and some players (Karl Malone and Kareem are the best examples) have incredibly long primes.

    What am I really curious about Scoots is how Howard's most recent seasons has actually changed his ranking for you? At what point was he at his highest? Around what number would you place him? Where has he fallen from there? You can estimate but I would love to hear actual numbers. I genuinely want to know.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    27,367
    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    there is 1 thing that has always bothered me... we all know lebron choked against Dallas... best player in the world at the time you cant lose that finals.... the thing is all you hear is how lebron lost it but what gets negated is how dirk/terry etc won it. Its a pretty ****** thing... dirk was amazing.
    I actually respectfully disagree here. In the modern era there have been several examples of NBA Finals that have monumental positive and negative impacts:

    Cavs over Warriors (Curry takes a hit / LeBron gets a massive boost)
    Rockets over Knicks (Ewing takes a hit / Hakeem gets a massive boost)
    Mavs over Cavs (LeBron takes a hit / Dirk gets a massive boost)

    I actually think Dirk gets full credit for that win. Maybe not enough people remember to bring up Jason Terry or the unconscious shooting by the Mavs but both star players take big hits for that outcome.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    27,367
    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Idk whet number is he was or is. I do know 7 years ago if a bunch of people on the internet were talking about him it would be weird if anyone to said he was always a negative. If someone did say that they probably would get roasted. Today....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    But I don't believe that because people look at Melo on the Rockets and say "he's not good anymore" that actually lowered him on anyone's list. Did that change your opinion of his career?

    That's what I'm struggling with. I see some voters saying that yes it hurts their legacy but I haven't seen anyone actually give me an example of a player whose all-time ranking changed after some bad seasons at the end of their career.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    GMT +2
    Posts
    13,802
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I actually respectfully disagree here. In the modern era there have been several examples of NBA Finals that have monumental positive and negative impacts:

    Cavs over Warriors (Curry takes a hit / LeBron gets a massive boost)
    Rockets over Knicks (Ewing takes a hit / Hakeem gets a massive boost)
    Mavs over Cavs (LeBron takes a hit / Dirk gets a massive boost)

    I actually think Dirk gets full credit for that win. Maybe not enough people remember to bring up Jason Terry or the unconscious shooting by the Mavs but both star players take big hits for that outcome.
    Does anyone really claim that Dirk is a top 10 player?
    I think he barely makes top 20 mentions. For someone defeating an alleged top 5 player at his peak as well as Wade and Bosh, you'd expect much more. Especially when you see Lebron claiming he's the greatest ever for beating the Cavs in 2016 who don't really look that much more impressive than the 2011 Heat if you don't look at the details (ie they were defending champs and had the best RS record, but pound for pound they were not as impressive as the 11 Heat). And fans also say that he's a lock for top 5 after that.

    Seems like double standards to me and recency bias and media bandwagonism.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    58,751
    I will point the table on two things and this thread hit on one of them:
    Allen Iverson’s legacy was hurt by him Memphis/2nd Sixers tour where he still thought he was something.
    Allen Iverson’s legacy was ruined by applying modern analytics to his game rather than understanding his game was appropriate for his era.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    parts unknown
    Posts
    47,065
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    But I don't believe that because people look at Melo on the Rockets and say "he's not good anymore" that actually lowered him on anyone's list. Did that change your opinion of his career?

    That's what I'm struggling with. I see some voters saying that yes it hurts their legacy but I haven't seen anyone actually give me an example of a player whose all-time ranking changed after some bad seasons at the end of their career.
    It didn’t chance my opinion but I definitely see people who not only say he’s not good anymore but say he was never very good. I also think it can go the other way. I think Ray Allen’s ring chasing probably helped his legacy. I think a lot of people probably rank Ray above Melo. I also think a lot less would if they both retired without a ring at there peak. Do you agree?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Rep Power: 0




    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    parts unknown
    Posts
    47,065
    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    You guys are making my point for me. These last years don't take him outta the HOF, its not like "oh, Melo played himself right outta the HOF those last few seasons".

    He'll be remembered for what he was a one way scorer who can't lead a team to anything, that hasn't changed these last few seasons.

    Just sidebar here, its the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF. Melo was a stud in college and has been a great Olympian, top to bottom he has a good basketball résumé. When I say he hasn't been anything, I'm speaking in comparison to the greats, it's not like he's a 3 time champion and 5 time MVP then fell off to his last few seasons, I mean the dude has never even played in an NBA finals game, gimme a break here.
    You made my point for me. Thanks


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Rep Power: 0




    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •