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View Poll Results: Can a player HURT their legacy by playing past their prime?

Voters
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  • Yes a lot

    1 11.11%
  • Yes a little

    2 22.22%
  • Not at all

    6 66.67%
  • Only Dwight Howard

    0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Results 136 to 150 of 156
  1. #136
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    I am fine with evaluating players while they are still in the game but I also like longevity. Bird had the better peak but Kobe had the better career. I rank Kobe over Bird in my all-time rankings. That's another reason why I think LeBron is a clear top 3 GOAT candidate. He's already 3rd in points and still going strong.

    I'm curious if you have a set number for "sustained" or just go by feel. I would argue Dwight had a 7-8 year prime and a 5 year peak. To me that's pretty damn close to make up for underachieving in Houston.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  2. #137
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    Longevity is overrated. I mean, great for the player and it helps him by climbing up all time stats ladders, but after several years where your peak has been shaped, it's becoming overrated.

    There's no universal number of years that a player should be judged upon, but I think it's safe to consider an 8 year window for players pre-1990 and a 10 year period for those who started their career in the 90s and on where the game became really big and the off the court stuff started improving such as medical care, conditioning etc. Which makes guys like Kareem and Moses seem even more spectacular.

    So while it is a plus to have longevity, it shouldn't matter a lot more than someone who has an 8 or 10 year prime.

  3. #138
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    I disagree.

    #1.) Players with longevity past their prime have added to their resumes in substantial ways.

    #2.) It is a great way to separate between players with similar peaks/primes.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I disagree.

    #1.) Players with longevity past their prime have added to their resumes in substantial ways.

    #2.) It is a great way to separate between players with similar peaks/primes.
    I agree. For instance, after 10 years Jim Brown was the best football player to ever play the game. After 10 years Jerry Rice was among the best WRs ever to play the game and maybe the best, but after playing another 10 years he was not only clearly the greatest WR to ever play the game, I think he's the best player overall to ever play the game. He was the greatest 15 years into his career, then he became the first WR in NFL history to play into his 40s and pushed those records even farther away.

    Had Barry Sanders kept playing like he no doubt could he may be the greatest of all time now, but he quit.

    (Sorry about the football references, my brain is in a football mood at the moment)

  5. #140
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    No. It only takes away the sentimental feeling.

    In fact, we celebrate these players for accomplishing milestones (ie Dirk moving up the scoring list or Kidd moving up the 3 point shooting list) when they are playing well past their primes.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Cool story about Rathman. My buddy was diehard Niners growing up (bc of Montana) and I was diehard Giants. We would play each other in Tecmo Super Bowl everyday and I remember hating Rathman because he wasn't fast but he was so hard to tackle. Sometimes even as LT you would just bounce off him and I would get so mad.

    In regard to your on topic section, I think ESPN did us a favor because they set up the perfect example.

    John Stockton #28
    Giannis Antetokounmpo #27

    If we go by your ranking system, then right now Giannis is playing at what...9/10? Probably even better if you like advanced statistics. 9.5 out of 10? By that measurement he should be ranked #27. However, I don't think there is anyway in hell you can convince me that if Giannis retired right now he had a better CAREER than Stockton. So I call B.S. on that ESPN ranking. Giannis should not be #27 yet. He didn't earn it yet.

    I don't like ranking systems that project. That is why I don't believe in declining rankings unless a player has been surpassed by a new rising player.

    I don't understand how you can hold that argument up with MJ. If, Jordan played for 10 horrible seasons on the Wizards at "5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1" would that really lower him? If you can't apply your rule universally I think it loses some validity.
    This to me is why we need a distinction between greatest and best. Greatest is the accumulation of awards, accolades, stats, etc.

    And best is simply how good a player you are.

    I agree Stockton has had the better career (though if Giannis wins another MVP it starts to get interesting). But if we were about to play a game and it was your pick, who are you taking: Giannis or Stockton?

  7. #142
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    Giannis please.

    Should we do a "best at their best" ranking list or the h2h build a team tournament?


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  8. #143
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    If a star is passed their prime and accepts a role on a contender and can contribute to winning i dont think it hurts.

    But if youre Vince Carter then yes i think it does hurt your legacy

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Giannis please.

    Should we do a "best at their best" ranking list or the h2h build a team tournament?
    I would love to see everyone’s “best at their best” ranking to see A where people put everyone and B how it differs from their normal top players ever list.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I would love to see everyone’s “best at their best” ranking to see A where people put everyone and B how it differs from their normal top players ever list.
    Just off the top of my head it would be hard to top Wilt's top level though he's not my top all time player.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Just off the top of my head it would be hard to top Wilt's top level though he's not my top all time player.
    He makes a great case.

    Shaq is another who gets called "dominant" but not GOAT.

    My guess for biggest jumpers would be Walton, T-Mac, and clearly Sabonis.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  12. #147
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    I mainly want to see where NYKalltheway would move LeBron. Would he even crack the top 100?

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I actually agree with you. I don't really care how he played when he was 21 years old against Prime Payton/Kemp or D-Rob/Duncan with no help. That's why I don't hold LeBron's first 7 years against him or Jordan's. Achieving success as a young player is so difficult in the NBA.
    u meant prime vin Baker n slightly past his peak GP

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    How we define "legacy" seems to alter our perception of this poll. The crux of the thread was to determine if a player's all-time ranking can actually go DOWN because of inferior play, diminishing skills, bad attitude, etc. after the prime of their career is over.

    Ewing, Scoots, Basch all make compelling arguments. Over time, younger generations will only remember certain players for how their careers ended. A whole generation only knows Grant Hill as a role player. That is a tremendous example. I remember vacationing in Orlando as a kid and I actually met him coming out of a "Ripley's Believe It or Not" museum. I was going inside.

    I said "You're Grant Hill!"
    He smiled and said "Yes, I am" as we walked past each other. That one of my only star athlete interactions so excuse the walk down memory lane. It felt like a commercial and like I had just met the next Michael Jordan.

    That never happened unfortunately but he did carve out a nice career. If we look at just "how some people will REMEMBER" a player than even I would go back and change my vote.

    However, the intention of the thread was more about an all-time player ranking and that is why I agree with NYK. The best example here is Jordan. NO ONE ever talks about Wizard's MJ when discussing his all-time rank. No one brings it up when discussing MJ vs. LeBron. It's like it never happened. Why? Because we already knew in 1998 everything that we needed to know. Anything after that was just extra.

    That is how I feel about MJ / Hakeem / Ewing / D12 / etc.
    MJ didn't hurt his legacy in washington because it was only 3 years, while his prime was 12 years, and in those 12 years he was almost universally considered the greatest ever.

    vince carter on the other hand, only had about 4-5 years as a superstar, another 4 or so years as a very good player, and then about 10 or 11 years as a role player

    so when literally half your career is as a role player, if affects how people see you more than just 3 years at the end of a 15 year career.

    you're comparing apples to oranges here
    Quote Originally Posted by NormSizedMidget View Post
    It's different now than it was.

    When he won the second one, Giants fans are here we're outside of their minds.
    That quote always cracks me up.

  15. #150
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    How many people would rank Vince Carter with a 6 year long career?
    Do you see Brandon Roy being mentioned anywhere?

    Vince Carter playing on basically cemented his name in the discussions.

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