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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    The proposed packages have been: #6, #27, #38 and Knox or Mavs pick for the rights to draft LaMelo.

    You wouldnít do RJ for LaMelo straight up? How is that nuts? Weíre trading one question mark for another question mark, but one at a much larger position of need who fits the modern NBA better.

    Iíd rather build around LaMelo and Mitch while surrounding them with 2-3 shooters at the 2, 3, and 4.

    Weíd keep the 6th pick to fill one of those spots (maybe someone like Deni, Toppin, or Okoro) and still have assets/cap to fill the rest.
    How about instead of RJ, trade Mitch for LaMelo?

    Then use our second pick on another guard.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    How many times has the consensus top guy or someone who most feel is an absolute game changer for a franchise ever been traded? Yet, draft trades happen and the team trading up benefits a lot of the time.

    You guys that are continuing to say that you wonít trade unless itís the consensus top guy are essentially saying that you donít believe teams should trade period since trades donít happen for that player. Doncic was a rare case based on ďquestionsĒ around him. I can guarantee you that in other years Ayton, Simmons, Towns, AD, Zion, etc. were never even available for trade.

    The kinds of players that move in deals like this are Marbury, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Pau Gasol, Kevin Love, Mayo, Trae Young, Deron Williams...guys who are considered good prospects but arenít the consensus top player on anyoneís board. Itís easy to look at these players now and be like theyíre all All Star talents, but it wasnít a guarantee when they were drafted.
    I'm still not trading a lot of draft capital for him. I would rather keep our pick and trade players for him.

  3. #138
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    LaMelo Ball definitely tops on the Knicks draft board

    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Itís not PG vs. QB, itís a top talent vs. QB. You need blue chip talents to even have a shot at winning. They are typically found higher in the draft, which is why trading back isnít really a thing in the NBA. The team trading back canít risk trading out of range for those types of players. In this case, it would be the Knicks trading into that range.

    Thereís a world where both Ball and Hayes get taken in the top 5 btw, so donít just assume that Hayes will be there for the Knicks. This could potentially be the Knicks watching Ball and Fox go before them and then having to choose between Frank and DSJ. Even if you donít think thereís a clear gap between Ball and Hayes, thereís a clear perceived gap between those two and the rest of the PGs.
    Most Knicks fans arenít interested in drafting BPA talent though, they want a PG no matter what with the lottery pick.

    We also didnít have the option of DSJ as he was picked before us. We had the choice between Frank and Mitchell for PGs. We just chose wrong which strengthens my argument for trading back.

    Iím not saying trade back at all costs, but if weíre not thrilled with the options that are available to us or like someone who can probably be had a spots down, why not collect the extra assets?

    T-Wolves liked Paul George in 2010, donít you think they wished they traded back for him instead of picking Wes Johnson #4?

    If Reddish ends up being an All-Star while RJ busts, weíll be wondering the same thing. Some Knicks execs liked Reddish more than RJ and there were some rumors of trading back with the Hawks last season for #8 and #10. Reddish and Herro looks like a better return than just RJ, IMO. Trade backs have become more popular recently.
    Last edited by YoungStuna; 05-27-2020 at 08:36 PM.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    They have some value if your team can scout/develop with a little luck. Weíve had much more success in late 1st/2nd round in the last decade than weíve had in the Top 10 outside of KP which is sad.

    THJ, Mitch, Fields (looked good before nerve injury), and Dotson. The latter is probably going to leave and put up better numbers elsewhere.

    We need to find some inexpensive role players so weíre not forced to fill the roster with so many sh**ty veterans.
    I understand that, but those players are replaceable.

    Losing Fields or Hardaway didnít hurt the Knicks. Mitch is the only one that has the potential to be more.

    Solid players donít do much for a bad team. These are all nice pieces for when the team becomes good, but a team usually doesnít become good until that star player is found. Even a player like Draymond is neutralized without the elite talent around him.

  5. 05-27-2020, 08:35 PM
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    Baiting/Disruptive

  6. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    Most Knicks fans arenít interested in drafting top talent though, they want a PG no matter what with the lottery pick.

    We also didnít have the option of DSJ as he was picked before us. We had the choice between Frank and Mitchell for PGs. We just chose wrong which strengthens my argument for trading back.

    Iím not saying trade back at all costs, but if weíre not thrilled with the options that are available to us or like someone who can probably be had a spots down, why not collect the extra assets?

    T-Wolves liked Paul George in 2010, donít you think they wished they woulda traded back for him instead of picking Wes Johnson #4?

    If Reddish ends up being an All-Star while RJ busts, weíll be wondering the same thing. Some Knicks execs like Reddish and there were some rumors of trading back with the Hawks last season for #8 and #10. Trade backs have become more popular recently.
    Again, youíre just focused on the rare outcome. Also, we are talking about the top talent in the draft. The thread isnít letís trade up for a PG, itís letís trade up for LaMelo Ball.

    We can play that game though. The Knicks badly wanted Westbrook, but instead of trading up to get him, they stayed where they were and drafted Gallo. Iím not even sure that a trade was possible, but I do know that you wouldíve argued against trading up.

    How about the following year with Curry? Neither Curry nor Westbrook wouldíve fit your criteria for moving up.
    Last edited by smood999; 05-27-2020 at 08:42 PM.

  7. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    If Reddish ends up being an All-Star while RJ busts, weíll be wondering the same thing. Some Knicks execs liked Reddish more than RJ and there were some rumors of trading back with the Hawks last season for #8 and #10. Reddish and Herro looks like a better return than just RJ, IMO. Trade backs have become more popular recently.
    You feel this way because you think that a team can be built with a spreadsheet. Let me know the next time that works.

  8. #142
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    LaMelo Ball definitely tops on the Knicks draft board

    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    he was 19 years old man... how many 19 year olds come in and are immediately good and efficient? meanwhile you're hyping up Obi who will be 23 during next season? Can you imagine how Obi would have looked in the NBA having just turned 19?

    32% and 1.1 made 3's is better than I was expecting year 1.

    you cant seriously be looking at a 19 year olds efficiency? You look for flashes, skill, effort, general understanding of the game and RJ showed a lot in those categories to me.

    He's an all star in the making.
    RJ was the #3 overall pick. 19 year old Top 10 non-#1 picks to be productive in the NBA as rookies in the last decade:

    Doncic, Tatum, Jaren Jackson, Murray, Russell, Beal, and Drummond

    That was a difficult exercise because a lot of rookies are 20 (even if they spent 1 year in college).

    RJ showed no flashes of an all-star to me. Maybe a pretty good player years from now, but not an all-star. How many all-star wings come into the league with no shot and struggle near the rim as well?

  9. #143
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    LaMelo Ball definitely tops on the Knicks draft board

    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I understand that, but those players are replaceable.

    Losing Fields or Hardaway didnít hurt the Knicks. Mitch is the only one that has the potential to be more.

    Solid players donít do much for a bad team. These are all nice pieces for when the team becomes good, but a team usually doesnít become good until that star player is found. Even a player like Draymond is neutralized without the elite talent around him.
    Losing Fields didnít hurt because he got injured and wasnít the same. But losing his rookie production did hurt the team.

    Trading THJ did hurt the team. We traded THJ for Grant who was a bust and then signed THJ to a larger deal a few years later.

    The fact that we found someone like Mitch who is clearly worth building around in the 2nd round is a good enough argument to keep similarly valued picks moving forward unless it makes absolute sense. A team doesnít become good overnight. Having better players around a star player will help their development. Not to mention getting better overall means we build up more trade assets and become a desirable destination once again.

  10. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett2010 View Post
    How about instead of RJ, trade Mitch for LaMelo?

    Then use our second pick on another guard.
    Iíd rather keep Mitch because he shows more of these ďflashesĒ than RJ does. LaMelo and Mitch could be ridiculously fun to watch. I think RJís talent is much more replaceable. Most players that are 7ft donít move the way Mitch does and heís a great rim protector.

  11. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    RJ was the #3 overall pick. 19 year old Top 10 non-#1 picks to be productive in the NBA as rookies in the last decade:

    Doncic, Tatum, Jaren Jackson, Murray, Russell, Beal, and Drummond

    That was a difficult exercise because a lot of rookies are 20 (even if they spent 1 year in college).

    RJ showed no flashes of an all-star to me. Maybe a pretty good player years from now, but not an all-star. How many all-star wings come into the league with no shot and struggle near the rim as well?
    Do you really think a rookie Jamal Murray was better than RJ as a rookie? You canít possibly believe that...

    DíAngelo Russell? Because they both were better three point shooters?

  12. #146
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    LaMelo Ball definitely tops on the Knicks draft board

    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Again, youíre just focused on the rare outcome. Also, we are talking about the top talent in the draft. The thread isnít letís trade up for a PG, itís letís trade up for LaMelo Ball.

    We can play that game though. The Knicks badly wanted Westbrook, but instead of trading up to get him, they stayed where they were and drafted Gallo. Iím not even sure that a trade was possible, but I do know that you wouldíve argued against trading up.

    How about the following year with Curry? Neither Curry nor Westbrook wouldíve fit your criteria for moving up.
    The T-Wolves traded back from 3 to 5 and got Love while the Grizzles got Mayo. Celtics traded back from 1 to 3 and got Tatum while the Sixers got Fultz.

    Westbrook and Curry fit the criteria of players I like. Westbrook was an extremely athletic and lightning quick PG. Curry was an insanely productive college player and tremendous shooter.

    Both guys had clear elite traits that made them stars. But like you said, we donít know if a trade up was possible.

    LaMeloís passing alone wonít make him a star.
    Last edited by YoungStuna; 05-27-2020 at 09:42 PM.

  13. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    You feel this way because you think that a team can be built with a spreadsheet. Let me know the next time that works.
    You can tell the Knicks probably never used a spreadsheet, otherwise we wouldnít have signed 100 PFs and no shooters.

  14. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    You can tell the Knicks probably never used a spreadsheet, otherwise we wouldnít have signed 100 PFs and no shooters.
    Cool, point still remains.

  15. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Do you really think a rookie Jamal Murray was better than RJ as a rookie? You canít possibly believe that...

    DíAngelo Russell? Because they both were better three point shooters?
    Better shooters (mid-range as well) and scorers period. They both had the college numbers to back up their lack-luster overall rookie inefficiencies. Not claiming they were great or anything, but they were both productive players as rookies. RJ was not.

  16. #150
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    LaMelo Ball definitely tops on the Knicks draft board

    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Cool, point still remains.
    My ideal spreadsheet Knicks starting 5 would be:

    Mitch
    Wood
    Hield
    CP3
    LaMelo

    I think everyone would agree that team would kick ***. And we would still have our 6th pick off the bench.

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