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  1. #31
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    I know and understand the interest in ranking players, but there are just so many factors that play into doing it, and not all are objective. That's why these top 5 and GOAT discussions kind of rankle me after awhile. It's kind of like ranking the best movies- even reducing it to best movies by category (i.e. position) leaves tons of room for subjectivity.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  2. #32
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    My belief is that you cannot be an elite back if you aren't extremely productive on the ground and at least capable as a receiver. The elite receiving backs can be ranked against each other, but outside of that it doesn't really affect tier rankings for me.

    The system that creates productive backs is based on a combination of factors In the case of CEH, he's walking into an extremely friendly running back system with a coach who has a history of maximizing RBs. Does that discredit his talent level? The burst, contact balance, or quick twitch he has? You have to factor in the system, but he's a back that I see as extremely talented. Where I look at the 49ers running backs and all of them are JAGs (Just another guy) to me, simply replacement level talent that wouldn't sniff any of my individual lists.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbrook36 View Post
    In the case of CEH, he's walking into an extremely friendly running back system with a coach who has a history of maximizing RBs. Does that discredit his talent level? The burst, contact balance, or quick twitch he has? You have to factor in the system, but he's a back that I see as extremely talented.
    There's a difference between talent and rankings though. There's plenty of guys that have all that pure talent in the world but aren't great in the league or bounce around the league.

    Like I look at it this way. What Shady, Hunt, Williams have done under Reid doesn't discredit the player Westbrook was, but now when I look at Westbrook I do question what percent of his perceived greatness was because he had a HC who could design an offense that gets him all these open looks. I mean....Correlle Buckwalter was a productive RB under Andy Reid.

    That's why you see some of those guys end up in their own area when I talk about running backs. The "yea he's good but they replace RB's all the time that produce". It's not like the Steelers run some special RB scheme that's easy to step into, yet we've gotten good games out of the likes Amos Zereoue, Jonathan Dwyer, Rashard Mendenhall, Isaac Redman. Does that mean LeVeon Bell is somehow a lesser back? No. But it does make you take pause as Conner stepped in and replicated the production, then Jaylen Samules did the same. And before them DeAngelo Williams.

    So lets say Edwards-Hilaire does 210 rushes for 1200 yards 5 TD, 40 catches for 500 yards and another 3 TDs; I will question some because that's near carry for carry and game for game production of Hunt and Williams. So what did they really gain?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbrook36 View Post
    Tier 1:
    1. Barkley
    2. CMC
    3. Zeke

    Tier 2:
    4. Kamara
    5. Joe Mixon
    6. Dalvin Cook
    7. Nick Chubb
    8. Derrick Henry

    Tier 3:
    9. Josh Jacobs
    10A. Aaron Jones
    10B. Leonard Fournette

    Mixon is my most underrated back in the league and my expectations are sky high for him in 2020. I'd probably take Josh Jacobs over Derrick Henry, but I may be in the minority for that. I think his talent level on the ground is less, but he has a much higher ceiling receiving wise.
    Looks accurate to me. Thatís pretty much exactly how I would rank them. Iím not even sure Fournette even belongs on this list. Injury prone, canít block and canít catch.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #35
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    I don't see Kamara and Mixon ahead of Cook and Chubb myself
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    Looks accurate to me. Thatís pretty much exactly how I would rank them. Iím not even sure Fournette even belongs on this list. Injury prone, canít block and canít catch.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Can't catch? Forunette was the #5 RB based on receptions for a RB & #4 in Target per game. That is such a hideous and unifnromed statement it's mindblowing. The Cowboys OL had the lowest stuff% while the Jaguars had the #23rd stuff% which means that zeke was running behind a far superior OL. The cowboys also had the #1 second level run rank while the Jags had the #27 second level run rank which means the Jaguars OL wasn't getting to it's blocks on the second level.


    Behind that awful OL Fournette averaged 4.3 YPC and behind that top OL Elliot averaged 4.5 YPC. Your uninformed homerism is showing off here. Fournette is closer to Zeke than Zeke is to being a top 1/2 back in the NFL.


    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...x=pfr__players

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...sive-line/2019

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Can't catch? Forunette was the #5 RB based on receptions for a RB & #4 in Target per game. That is such a hideous and unifnromed statement it's mindblowing. The Cowboys OL had the lowest stuff% while the Jaguars had the #23rd stuff% which means that zeke was running behind a far superior OL. The cowboys also had the #1 second level run rank while the Jags had the #27 second level run rank which means the Jaguars OL wasn't getting to it's blocks on the second level.


    Behind that awful OL Fournette averaged 4.3 YPC and behind that top OL Elliot averaged 4.5 YPC. Your uninformed homerism is showing off here. Fournette is closer to Zeke than Zeke is to being a top 1/2 back in the NFL.


    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...x=pfr__players

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...sive-line/2019
    Fournette stats are very skewed.

  8. #38
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    Interesting stat there, they are trying to point out which teams rely more on their offensive line and which teams rely more on their running back.

    In their own words:
    ďA team with a high ranking in Adjusted Line Yards but a low ranking in Open Field Yards is heavily dependent on its offensive line to make the running game work. A team with a low ranking in Adjusted Line Yards but a high ranking in Open Field Yards is heavily dependent on its running back breaking long runs to make the running game work.Ē

    So teams like Dallas, New Orleans, Oakland, New England, and Denver had good to elite level run blocking but their running backs didnít take advantage of it as much as they could have.

    New Orleans: #1 in adjusted line yards, #15 in open field yards
    Dallas: #2 in adjusted line yards, #18 in open field yards
    Oakland: #6 in adjusted line yards, #22 in open field yards
    New England: #9 in adjusted line yards, #28 in open field yards
    Denver: #11 in adjusted line yards, #23 in open field yards

    Then on the flip side, teams that relied more on their running back to make defenders miss and get extra yards are Jacksonville, KC, NYG, and Arizona

    Jacksonville: #27 in adjusted line yards, #4 in open field yards
    KC: #28 in adjusted line yards, #7 in open field yards
    NYG: #25 in adjusted line yards, #8 in open field yards
    Arizona: #22 in adjusted line yards, # 9 in open field yards

    Your baby can't do this

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbrook36 View Post
    My belief is that you cannot be an elite back if you aren't extremely productive on the ground and at least capable as a receiver. The elite receiving backs can be ranked against each other, but outside of that it doesn't really affect tier rankings for me.
    Agree.

    An average QB with an elite ground-running back is dynamic and versatile. An average QB with an elite pass-catching RB is even more dangerous in the air, but it's not dynamic/versatile.

    The hardest thing a defense has to do is to guard against the run AND pass. Some linebackers and d-lineman aren't versatile enough to do both. I know when watching some of the Chargers last year (Austin Ekeler on fantasy team) defenses tended to do quite well. Ekeler might get 8 receptions for 62 yards in a game but it was extremely predictable. 3rd and 12? Let's give Ekeler his 9 yards. The offense could be contained depending on down and distance.

    There was a Chargers/Broncos game (I forget which offhand) where the Broncos smothered the Chargers offense because they were so focused on getting Ekeler those catches. Mgjohnson might remember it. Edit: Week 5. Ekeler had 15 receptions for 86 yards. 3 carries for 7 yards. I think if it were 15 rushes for 86 yards, that puts more pressure on a defense to commit to stopping the run, more exposing them to passes. The game finished 20-13 but the Chargers only touchdown came on a punt return. Offense was too predictable.

    Yards may not necessarily be equal, if that makes sense.
    Last edited by Vee-Rex; 05-22-2020 at 03:36 PM.
    The Baker has come. Believe the hype.


  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydubb View Post
    Interesting stat there, they are trying to point out which teams rely more on their offensive line and which teams rely more on their running back.

    In their own words:
    ďA team with a high ranking in Adjusted Line Yards but a low ranking in Open Field Yards is heavily dependent on its offensive line to make the running game work. A team with a low ranking in Adjusted Line Yards but a high ranking in Open Field Yards is heavily dependent on its running back breaking long runs to make the running game work.Ē

    So teams like Dallas, New Orleans, Oakland, New England, and Denver had good to elite level run blocking but their running backs didnít take advantage of it as much as they could have.

    New Orleans: #1 in adjusted line yards, #15 in open field yards
    Dallas: #2 in adjusted line yards, #18 in open field yards
    Oakland: #6 in adjusted line yards, #22 in open field yards
    New England: #9 in adjusted line yards, #28 in open field yards
    Denver: #11 in adjusted line yards, #23 in open field yards

    Then on the flip side, teams that relied more on their running back to make defenders miss and get extra yards are Jacksonville, KC, NYG, and Arizona

    Jacksonville: #27 in adjusted line yards, #4 in open field yards
    KC: #28 in adjusted line yards, #7 in open field yards
    NYG: #25 in adjusted line yards, #8 in open field yards
    Arizona: #22 in adjusted line yards, # 9 in open field yards
    Make defenders miss and get extra yards? Is that also blown assignments in which defenders get through the line Scott free?

    Can you also acknowledge the fournette and Elliot link? One of them is getting 15 a year and the other got a 8 m option declined. Someone gonna get a hell of a deal. Although I think a lot of it is fournettes attitude issues

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Rex View Post
    Agree.

    An average QB with an elite ground-running back is dynamic and versatile. An average QB with an elite pass-catching RB is even more dangerous in the air, but it's not dynamic/versatile.

    The hardest thing a defense has to do is to guard against the run AND pass. Some linebackers and d-lineman aren't versatile enough to do both. I know when watching some of the Chargers last year (Austin Ekeler on fantasy team) defenses tended to do quite well. Ekeler might get 8 receptions for 62 yards in a game but it was extremely predictable. 3rd and 12? Let's give Ekeler his 9 yards. The offense could be contained depending on down and distance.

    There was a Chargers/Broncos game (I forget which offhand) where the Broncos smothered the Chargers offense because they were so focused on getting Ekeler those catches. Mgjohnson might remember it. Edit: Week 5. Ekeler had 15 receptions for 86 yards. 3 carries for 7 yards. I think if it were 15 rushes for 86 yards, that puts more pressure on a defense to commit to stopping the run, more exposing them to passes. The game finished 20-13 but the Chargers only touchdown came on a punt return. Offense was too predictable.

    Yards may not necessarily be equal, if that makes sense.
    Ekeler isn't an every down back IMO. But as a pass catching back he's pretty elite. Needs a pure runner to work with.

    Also that few rushes shows an issue with offensive playcalling more so than actual player skill.

    Basically my point is you might feel fine saying Ekeler isn't on the same level as say Carlos Hyde (their total scrimmage yards are near identical). I'm not because their roles and what they do are too different to me because they really do different things. To me it's like if someone said Bud Dupree is a better OLB than KJ Wright because Bud has more sacks. KJ Wright isn't a pass rusher and has many more tackles. Dupree is a pass rusher so he gets more sacks. Their positional label is the same, their roles are different. So we can't compare them head to head.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Ekeler isn't an every down back IMO. But as a pass catching back he's pretty elite. Needs a pure runner to work with.

    Also that few rushes shows an issue with offensive playcalling more so than actual player skill.

    Basically my point is you might feel fine saying Ekeler isn't on the same level as say Carlos Hyde (their total scrimmage yards are near identical). I'm not because their roles and what they do are too different to me because they really do different things. To me it's like if someone said Bud Dupree is a better OLB than KJ Wright because Bud has more sacks. KJ Wright isn't a pass rusher and has many more tackles. Dupree is a pass rusher so he gets more sacks. Their positional label is the same, their roles are different. So we can't compare them head to head.
    Hyde isn't an elite runner. He's an okay runner who can't pass catch if his life depended on it. Ekeler is an elite pass catcher. I'd take Ekeler over Hyde because the stats don't tell the whole story. Also, how is he even close to Ekeler in scrimmage yards? Hyde had 1112 scrimmage yards and Ekeler had 1550. Hell, someone like Chubb or Zeke are closer comparisons and you'd be a fool to take Ekeler over those two.

    A better comparison is a Chris Carson or Josh Jacobs vs. Austin Ekeler. Neither are really 'elite' runners right now but they're a lot better of a comparison than Hyde is. And I take both (Carson's fumbles aside) over Ekeler.

    Edit: Actually, a BETTER comparison is a Chubb/Zeke (elite runners, average pass catchers) vs. Ekeler (elite pass catcher, average runner). Their scrimmage yards are pretty close. Chubb: 1772, Zeke: 1777, Ekeler: 1550 (only 8 starts). Ekeler with more touches probably hits 1800 scrimmage yards.

    I still take Zeke/Chubb over him easily.
    Last edited by Vee-Rex; 05-22-2020 at 04:35 PM.
    The Baker has come. Believe the hype.


  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Rex View Post
    Hyde isn't an elite runner. He's an okay runner who can't pass catch if his life depended on it. Ekeler is an elite pass catcher. I'd take Ekeler over Hyde because the stats don't tell the whole story. Also, how is he even close to Ekeler in scrimmage yards? Hyde had 1112 scrimmage yards and Ekeler had 1550. Hell, someone like Chubb or Zeke are closer comparisons and you'd be a fool to take Ekeler over those two.

    A better comparison is a Chris Carson or Josh Jacobs vs. Austin Ekeler. Neither are really 'elite' runners right now but they're a lot better of a comparison than Hyde is. And I take both (Carson's fumbles aside) over Ekeler.

    Edit: Actually, a BETTER comparison is a Chubb/Zeke (elite runners, average pass catchers) vs. Ekeler (elite pass catcher, average runner). Their scrimmage yards are pretty close. Chubb: 1772, Zeke: 1777, Ekeler: 1550 (only 8 starts). Ekeler with more touches probably hits 1800 scrimmage yards.

    I still take Zeke/Chubb over him easily.
    I donít count them as good comparisons because they are every down backs. The Chargers are making a mistake trying to use Ekeler as one. Ekeler is a pass catching back, Hyde is a runner. Both are part time players. Hard to compare.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Make defenders miss and get extra yards? Is that also blown assignments in which defenders get through the line Scott free?

    Can you also acknowledge the fournette and Elliot link? One of them is getting 15 a year and the other got a 8 m option declined. Someone gonna get a hell of a deal. Although I think a lot of it is fournettes attitude issues
    I was more interested in the 2nd link because I havenít seen that before. If that 2nd link was accurate then it does look like fournette was better than zeke last year, or at least zeke relied more on his offensive line than fournette did and the stats arenít too much different.

    Your baby can't do this

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydubb View Post
    I was more interested in the 2nd link because I havenít seen that before. If that 2nd link was accurate then it does look like fournette was better than zeke last year, or at least zeke relied more on his offensive line than fournette did and the stats arenít too much different.
    Sometimes the visual can tell you just as much if not more:
    Fournette's week to week chart.

    Elliott's week to week chart.

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