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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Interesting. I will say this, based on your list it does seem like you have a consistent set of criteria. I can see how you got there. I don't agree with the exact order but it makes sense. For example, I value longevity a lot more than you. Magic / Bird only had careers about 60% as long as Kareem. I think that's a significant difference but I'm assuming after 10 years you just lock it in.
    Longevity does matter of course but it's not a crucial factor.

    I have Magic ahead of Kareem because while Kareem was a great scorer and defensive player and a great overall player, it wasn't until Magic came to town that he became a perennial contender and multiple championship winner. You value MVPs. Notice how Kareem never won once since Magic's rookie year?
    In 1985 he won the Finals MVP but I'd give it to either Worthy or Magic. Kareem did score a bunch so he was definitely in the conversation, but it felt more like a sympathy trophy with Magic already having 2 of those already.
    So Kareem's legacy got boosted because of Magic. Prior to that, he was a perennial MVP winner, in the "players decide who's the MVP era". Never won after it when the media was deciding, which isn't very odd as the media never liked him. Just like they never really liked Kobe until late in his career and in the limited post-career we had him. So would Kareem win all those MVPs were voted by the media? Who knows, but I think they'd be less.

    For me longevity is important but it's not a catalyst. For example years of activity, or more specifically, years of being at your peak & prime is relevant if you want to be in the discussion for top 10-20-50 whatever. But that's it at the end of the day. A barrier of entry in this conversation. If you maintain a level after many years, good for you, it sure helps. But I'm not going to penalize others for not playing for 20 seasons, especially since 3-4 years in college was a thing for almost every superstar ever.

    What I value a lot is the "it" factor. All five of the players I mentioned have...it!
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 05-23-2020 at 05:12 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Longevity does matter of course but it's not a crucial factor.

    I have Magic ahead of Kareem because while Kareem was a great scorer and defensive player and a great overall player, it wasn't until Magic came to town that he became a perennial contender and multiple championship winner. You value MVPs. Notice how Kareem never won once since Magic's rookie year?
    In 1985 he won the Finals MVP but I'd give it to either Worthy or Magic. Kareem did score a bunch so he was definitely in the conversation, but it felt more like a sympathy trophy with Magic already having 2 of those already.
    So Kareem's legacy got boosted because of Magic. Prior to that, he was a perennial MVP winner, in the "players decide who's the MVP era". Never won after it when the media was deciding, which isn't very odd as the media never liked him. Just like they never really liked Kobe until late in his career and in the limited post-career we had him. So would Kareem win all those MVPs were voted by the media? Who knows, but I think they'd be less.

    For me longevity is important but it's not a catalyst. For example years of activity, or more specifically, years of being at your peak & prime is relevant if you want to be in the discussion for top 10-20-50 whatever. But that's it at the end of the day. A barrier of entry in this conversation. If you maintain a level after many years, good for you, it sure helps. But I'm not going to penalize others for not playing for 20 seasons, especially since 3-4 years in college was a thing for almost every superstar ever.

    What I value a lot is the "it" factor. All five of the players I mentioned have...it!
    Your narrative on Kareem seems to be extremely flawed. Kareem's Bucks teams were absolutely contenders and he won a title already. They lost the 74 title to Boston in 7 games. He certainly didn't need Magic to win. In fact, between the 2, Kareem is the only one to have won a title without the other.

    And Kareem never winning MVP after Magic's rookie year was not because of some media conspiracy or dislike of Kareem. He finished 3rd in MVP voting the very next year and finished 4th, 4th and 5th in 84, 85 and 86. I'd say him not winning MVPs after that point had to do with the fact he was in his mid 30's by that point considering the only 2 players to ever win an MVP at a later age than Kareem are Michael Jordan and Karl Malone.

    Also, Magic and him both siphoned each other's MVP votes with Johnson finishing 3rd in 84 (Kareem 4th), 2nd in 85 (Kareem 4th), and 3rd in 86 (Kareem 5th). Is it any wonder Magic didn't start winning MVPs until Kareem was 38 and completely out of the MVP picture?

    It's interesting that you accuse anyone who thinks highly of LeBron of simply being blinded by media pushing him when your top 3 are Jordan, Bird and Magic, who were pushed extremely hard by the league and media to be transcendent stars to increase the popularity of basketball. I mean, it borders on cliché to have grown up around the 80's/90's and to think that MJ, Bird and Magic are the best ever.

  3. #63
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    Pierce is sick because LeBron would always beat him in the playoffs

    But no one should be sweating about this because LeBron doesn't care

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Your narrative on Kareem seems to be extremely flawed. Kareem's Bucks teams were absolutely contenders and he won a title already. They lost the 74 title to Boston in 7 games. He certainly didn't need Magic to win. In fact, between the 2, Kareem is the only one to have won a title without the other.

    And Kareem never winning MVP after Magic's rookie year was not because of some media conspiracy or dislike of Kareem. He finished 3rd in MVP voting the very next year and finished 4th, 4th and 5th in 84, 85 and 86. I'd say him not winning MVPs after that point had to do with the fact he was in his mid 30's by that point considering the only 2 players to ever win an MVP at a later age than Kareem are Michael Jordan and Karl Malone.

    Also, Magic and him both siphoned each other's MVP votes with Johnson finishing 3rd in 84 (Kareem 4th), 2nd in 85 (Kareem 4th), and 3rd in 86 (Kareem 5th). Is it any wonder Magic didn't start winning MVPs until Kareem was 38 and completely out of the MVP picture?

    It's interesting that you accuse anyone who thinks highly of LeBron of simply being blinded by media pushing him when your top 3 are Jordan, Bird and Magic, who were pushed extremely hard by the league and media to be transcendent stars to increase the popularity of basketball. I mean, it borders on cliché to have grown up around the 80's/90's and to think that MJ, Bird and Magic are the best ever.
    My narrative is flawed yet you're talking about Kareem before he moved to Los Angeles, before Magic was drafted... What does that have anything to do with Magic?

    And sure, Magic played with 37 and 38 year old Kareem so he didn't win a title without him, yet he did reach the Finals. Did Kareem reach the Finals with the Lakers without Magic? He actually didn't make playoffs 1/4 times either. They reached the WCF once in the other three years and got swept.
    And he demanded a trade to Los Angeles who had the worst record in the league, it's not like he wanted to play for the best!

    Kareem had a wonderful career but everything that followed with the Lakers was due to the Magic factor. Kareem would still be an elite player throughout that decade, but he'd not have the legacy of someone who had won 6 rings now. Magic made the team tick. Kareem had a career prior to Magic, Magic had problems after Kareem left but he still found a way to make use of Divac and the rest and reach the finals before he stopped playing. He showed us in a cameo in 1996 that he still had it and that we missed out on more greatness. Who knows, maybe the Lakers don't let Houston go to two Finals when MJ wasn't around and he gets his 6th ring. But that's for the "what ifs".

    Yes, Magic, Bird and Jordan were not great, they were just pushed by the media It's not that the media just jumped on the bandwagon, they created these players and probably also that great rivalry
    Can you stop making everything about Lebron?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by boarman1 View Post
    Pierce is sick because LeBron would always beat him in the playoffs

    But no one should be sweating about this because LeBron doesn't care
    2008, Pierce's team won
    2010, Pierce's team won

    Then Lebron went to Miami to play with the second best player in the league in Wade and also had Bosh at this prime while Pierce was 33, Ray Allen was 35 and Garnett was 34. So in fairness to Pierce, he's quite right when he says that he helped push Lebron to Wade's arms in order to beat that aging team to the Finals.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I don't think you should discount their knowledge. You just have to recognize obvious bias.

    Also gotta understand that people say things for a reaction. A few years ago Pierce said Lebron was a top 5 player of all time. But it was't this big segment of its own context where he thought about what to say to get a reaction.
    What knowledge we talking about? Many players aren't students of the , they are in the NBA because they are big and talented. Notice coaches, execs, and those regarded as experts are generally not ex players. Bias plays a huge role when Lebron mostly wasted Pierce, while PP grew up loving MJ.

    I.simply mean, yet another example of why using a players opinion never justifies anything. They are not the deciding factor in any debate regarding bball.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    My narrative is flawed yet you're talking about Kareem before he moved to Los Angeles, before Magic was drafted... What does that have anything to do with Magic?

    And sure, Magic played with 37 and 38 year old Kareem so he didn't win a title without him, yet he did reach the Finals. Did Kareem reach the Finals with the Lakers without Magic? He actually didn't make playoffs 1/4 times either. They reached the WCF once in the other three years and got swept.
    And he demanded a trade to Los Angeles who had the worst record in the league, it's not like he wanted to play for the best!

    Kareem had a wonderful career but everything that followed with the Lakers was due to the Magic factor. Kareem would still be an elite player throughout that decade, but he'd not have the legacy of someone who had won 6 rings now. Magic made the team tick. Kareem had a career prior to Magic, Magic had problems after Kareem left but he still found a way to make use of Divac and the rest and reach the finals before he stopped playing. He showed us in a cameo in 1996 that he still had it and that we missed out on more greatness. Who knows, maybe the Lakers don't let Houston go to two Finals when MJ wasn't around and he gets his 6th ring. But that's for the "what ifs".

    Yes, Magic, Bird and Jordan were not great, they were just pushed by the media It's not that the media just jumped on the bandwagon, they created these players and probably also that great rivalry
    Can you stop making everything about Lebron?
    You’re trying to give Magic all the credit for the Lakers success and it’s bizarre. Yeah, they became a championship level team once Magic got there, but that’s because it was then comprised of both Magic and Kareem, not just Kareem. Those Lakers certainly don’t win 5 titles without Kareem.

    Your argument for why Magic is better than Kareem rests on the premise that we should forget Kareem’s Milwaukee years never happened. Kareem was unequivocally the more successful of the two without the other.

  8. #68
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    I'm not giving Magic ALL the credit. This is why I cannot keep having this discussion with you. You receive all the wrong stuff from written language.

    And no, I'm not forgetting anything about Kareem. I was explicit in that.

    Please take more effort in reading what you're replying to. It's tiring having to say things 15 times just because you don't seem to get it. What you have written here in no way reflects the post you quoted. It's absurd that I have to do this all the time.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I'm not giving Magic ALL the credit. This is why I cannot keep having this discussion with you. You receive all the wrong stuff from written language.

    And no, I'm not forgetting anything about Kareem. I was explicit in that.

    Please take more effort in reading what you're replying to. It's tiring having to say things 15 times just because you don't seem to get it. What you have written here in no way reflects the post you quoted. It's absurd that I have to do this all the time.
    The issue is he counters your points and you hang on semantics to whine.

    You definitely did go on about Kareem not winning in LA without Magic and have been making the argument these are reasons Magic is higher. He was laying out so much context that type of looks ignores.

    You even said "Kareem had a wonderful career but everything that followed for the lakers was due to the Magic factor"... That sure seems like wanting to give credit for the titles/success to the Magic factor since those are part of everything and did come after.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 05-24-2020 at 12:53 PM.

  10. #70
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    In fairness to Magic, a lot of his success came with a player named Kareem, but not ALL TIME GREAT NBA PLAYER KAREEM, if you know what I mean.

    During the last ring they won together, Kareem averaged 14.6 points/game. Obviously he was still a quality player, but it's disingenuous to present that as an example of Magic needing top 3 all time player Kareem with him.

    Kareem is not a top 3 player all time based on what he did with Magic. Kareem was teammates with Magic for his age 32-41 seasons. Very much out of his prime for most of it.


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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    What knowledge we talking about? Many players aren't students of the , they are in the NBA because they are big and talented. Notice coaches, execs, and those regarded as experts are generally not ex players. Bias plays a huge role when Lebron mostly wasted Pierce, while PP grew up loving MJ.

    I.simply mean, yet another example of why using a players opinion never justifies anything. They are not the deciding factor in any debate regarding bball.
    I don't think Paul Pierce is a HOFer because of his size and athleticism lol

    He's obviously biased in this. But overall I thought Pierce WAS a student of the game and someone who always played with great basketball knowledge. I respect his thoughts and opinions overall while recognizing that he hates Lebron and don't take any of his trolling seriously.

    Then again, I can also admit my bias in favor of respecting Pierce's opinions and thoughts because he played for my team.


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    In fairness to Magic, a lot of his success came with a player named Kareem, but not ALL TIME GREAT NBA PLAYER KAREEM, if you know what I mean.

    During the last ring they won together, Kareem averaged 14.6 points/game. Obviously he was still a quality player, but it's disingenuous to present that as an example of Magic needing top 3 all time player Kareem with him.

    Kareem is not a top 3 player all time based on what he did with Magic. Kareem was teammates with Magic for his age 32-41 seasons. Very much out of his prime for most of it.
    Sure, that title he had clearly fallen off by and the one before that even he was not the same even if a little better but I don't know why we need "in fairness to Magic" when people are responding to someone claiming "everything that followed for the Lakers was due to the Magic factor...." despite them having made 2nd round/conf semi's the year before he came and Kareem was not the player you mentioned until the last couple titles (25/9 in the playoffs from 80-86, almost 3 bpg still averaged out).

    I agree Kareem is not only a top 3 player based on what he did with Magic but he was still an incredibly great players and not everything related to the success that team had was just due to Magic factor. Kareem was still an all time great for many years, that team was already good when Magic joined and so on. The point is that Kareem had so much added onto what him and Magic accomplished (considering you note the timing yourself) together as a great duo shouldn't be ignored either and that is why overall many likely have him higher.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I'm not giving Magic ALL the credit. This is why I cannot keep having this discussion with you. You receive all the wrong stuff from written language.

    And no, I'm not forgetting anything about Kareem. I was explicit in that.

    Please take more effort in reading what you're replying to. It's tiring having to say things 15 times just because you don't seem to get it. What you have written here in no way reflects the post you quoted. It's absurd that I have to do this all the time.
    I think your problem is you seem to be trying to say something different than you actually type out. I don't think you're aware of what you're saying.

    Here's what you said:

    I have Magic ahead of Kareem because while Kareem was a great scorer and defensive player and a great overall player, it wasn't until Magic came to town that he became a perennial contender and multiple championship winner.

    You didn't say anything about talking about only the Lakers. Perhaps that's what you meant, but it most certainly is not what you said.

    And you talk about how you weren't giving Magic all the credit, well it's hard for me to have got that out of these quotes:

    Kareem had a wonderful career but everything that followed with the Lakers was due to the Magic factor.


    So stop saying I'm not understanding what you're writing. I am. The problem is, you're not writing what you're thinking apparently. So start doing that. If you don't want to say that Kareem wasn't a contender until Magic, don't say that. If you wanted to say that about only the Lakers, say it's about only the Lakers. If you don't want to say that Magic is responsible for everything, don't say everything that followed on the Lakers was because of Magic.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    In fairness to Magic, a lot of his success came with a player named Kareem, but not ALL TIME GREAT NBA PLAYER KAREEM, if you know what I mean.

    During the last ring they won together, Kareem averaged 14.6 points/game. Obviously he was still a quality player, but it's disingenuous to present that as an example of Magic needing top 3 all time player Kareem with him.

    Kareem is not a top 3 player all time based on what he did with Magic. Kareem was teammates with Magic for his age 32-41 seasons. Very much out of his prime for most of it.
    Of course Magic didn't need a Top 3 player all-time to win a title. But at the same token by that time Kareem was fading, Magic got a fully formed James Worthy.

    Which goes back to my point, all the greats won so many titles because they had help.

  15. #75
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    Not until Magic came to town should suggest to you that the specific phrase was regarding Kareem in LA. It's not that difficult to keep up with what I'm typing if you pay attention. I'm very precise in how I type exactly because I don't want to leave any room for misunderstanding. Yet it seems that people don't have the attention span for it or do not have the capacity of following it, maybe I'll just stick to emoticons or one liners next time.

    And obviously everything that followed was due to Magic. In another timeline where someone else goes instead of Magic, perhaps Kareem also plays for a perennial championship contender, but the truth is that Kareem was just a great player on a team that wasn't so great. It became an all time great team because it had both Magic and Kareem as well as others, but let's not pretend that Kareem didn't need Magic more than Magic needed Kareem at that stage of their careers.

    Magic changed the landscape. That's facts and that's why Kareem should be grateful he had Magic as a teammate. Magic should also be greateful he had Kareem as a teammate. But Kareem wouldn't be counting his rings without Magic. You can argue that Magic wouldn't either, which is fair to an extent, but not so much as for Kareem.
    The whole premise of Kareem = GOAT or #2 is because of his combination of stas, longevity and most importantly, rings. Losing the rings doesn't make him a GOAT contender and losing Magic from his team means he probably doesn't have a lot more than that 1 with Miwaukee, with Oscar Robertson as you like to point out.
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 05-24-2020 at 02:11 PM.

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