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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Never said I could, just said pretty much everyone agrees he's top 25 so the idea that he gets no respect is just silly. He gets a lot of respect, just not as much as some think he should get.
    No one ever says LeBron is a top 20 player of all-time. You average it down to where it makes the most sense - which is why people would put LeBron as a top five player of all-time as he's in the 1-5 spot. Saying a player is a top 25 player of all-time is pretty much saying he can go anywhere from 1-25. There is a huge difference between me saying LeBron is a top 5 player of all time versus LeBron is a top 20 player of all time because you are now saying a guy like Dirk Nowitzki is on the same ranking as LeBron. There's just no context behind it. If you knew nothing about tennis and someone said Roger Federer is a top 25 tennis player of all-time, you would think less of Federer as a player. It's a total discrediting of their career.

    Let's be honest. You know the difference. you just made a mistake by saying top 25 and have too much ego to say you should have said 10-15 instead.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    There's a huge flaw here. You're assuming that Dwight Howard is one of a handful of the greatest centers of all time. He's not. You need 4-5 hands actually. So he's fairly rated at top 20-25.
    Iím assuming that for those that think Dwight is an 11-15 Center all-time, saying heís top 25 is indeed disrespectful to them.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Prove what?

    Anthony Davis is in a similar situation now. The guy is skilled as **** and can play on both sides. When he retires he can safely say that he's one of the greatest of his position. Whether that's greatest 5 or 10 or 15 isfor another conversation, but the guy is legit.

    Howard was never that. Whereas Hakeem was that and more. The problem with rating Howard high is that he failed to adapt to a different style and he failed to be better than competition when it arrived. Yes he's athletic and he could rebound in an era where boxing out caused allergic reactions but how great was he?


    And what you posted adds nothing to the conversation. You're just barking about the same thing I called problematic before (ie no competition). Who cares if he rebounded more? Who cares if he gets 60% which is pretty much dunking the ball when you're not allowed to touch someone near the basket? The guy shot less than 40% past 5 feet and the majority of his shots came within the restricted area. It's a non-factor. This isn't a discussion to compare him with Andrew Bynum, Greg Oden, Al Jefferson and Tyson Chandler. This is where we compare him with Artis Gilmore, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Willis Reed, Mel Daniels [if we accept ABA as part of NBA's history], Robert Parish, Bob Lanier, Jack Sikma, Bob McAdoo, Dave Cowens, Rik Smits, Vlade Divac etc.

    You can say that he's better than Marcus Camby and Ben Wallace, but he's definitely off the top 15 centers of all time and it's debatable if he breaks in the top 20. Who cares if he rebounded more than Kevin Love and Carlos Boozer? Rebounding on its own doesn't say that much. What % of these were contested? What % of the team's rebounds were they? What % of rebounds did he won or lost in duels? How many rebounds did he get from his own miss in offense? How many rebounds did he receive from other players boxing out? It's just a number. I know it can be indicative, especially with consistency, but at the end of the day it doesn't say that much. Even if we concede that he's one of the greatest rebounders of all time, he didn't play in an era where 7 footers were common and he also didn't play at the same time as other great rebounders.
    There was Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett sure, but notice how Howard started leading those stat lines when Garnett joined a better team. Did Garnett forget how to rebound in Boston and averaged 3-4 less per game? Duncan's numbers slightly decreased when he was teamed up with DeJuan Blair also. As a number on its own it doesn't say that much. But even if it did, so what? Doesn't make Howard a great center.

    And I'm not sure he was that great of a defender, he was very overrated because he would jump very high and have spectacular blocks. He was very bad at marking and was lucky that he didn't face many great bigs. He couldn't defend the pick & roll very well but his team was strong enough to hide that. It was exposed when he moved to Houston and Los Angeles. You can blame D'Antoni all you want for it, but it wasn't the case when Tyosn Chandler was in New York.
    Dwight playing for any team that's not Orlando is never a DPOY contender, that's a fact. I'd agree that he's one of the best help defenders of the last 20 years, but he's bang average as a defender. And we haven't even seen him against quality centers.
    Those statistics support the argument that he was:

    An elite post option
    An elite screener
    An elite finisher
    An elite rebounder
    An elite defender

    He led a team of Rashard Lewis / Hedo / Jameer /Rafer to the #1 defense in the NBA.

    How is that possible?


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  4. #109
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    Everyone always ***** on Drose mvp season, and justifiably so, but they rarely mention who got screwed the most by it. Dwight's legacy takes a big jump if he's rightfully named the MVP.

    Howard has almost no defensive flaws(outside his infatuation with volleyball spikes), he made winning with no inside support a thing, his team was utter trash defensively without him.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Everyone always ***** on Drose mvp season, and justifiably so, but they rarely mention who got screwed the most by it. Dwight's legacy takes a big jump if he's rightfully named the MVP.

    Howard has almost no defensive flaws(outside his infatuation with volleyball spikes), he made winning with no inside support a thing, his team was utter trash defensively without him.
    I agree he was a force. Turky and Lewis really opened the lane for him to. Plus Hedo was really good ball handler. That was a good team. They only got away with how soft they were at the forwards spot and weak on D on general bc Howard was an absolute beast. I remember thinking what he wrong with this guy when he turned on Stan.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I just picked a random example of a stat. I haven't given center rankings. My only comment on Dwight specifically was that I think he's underrated by people and that he was phenomenal in his prime (albeit I thought a short prime).

    My response was more of a general statement. I don't think playing against weaker competition in a different era disqualifies someone from being great. I would just expect a player in the weaker era to dominate to a higher degree.

    Like I said, I think Dwight was phenomenal during his ORL days. I think his own immaturities and failure to accept his limitations led to a short peak but those ORL years remain what they were. Just with how he's talked about by people I think he's very underrated. I haven't researched enough to put him into historical context though. Just in general though, with surface level knowledge, I feel he played weaker center competition on average than some from past eras. So if I were to do all the digging, I'd factor that into my interpretation of the numbers.
    His short prime/peak were a result of a back injury he suffered during his last year in Orlando. He wasnít the same player after the injury.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonFSU View Post
    His short prime/peak were a result of a back injury he suffered during his last year in Orlando. He wasnít the same player after the injury.
    Yup. And since he never developed any real offensive moves outside of just being physically overwhelming, he was just someone you lobbed the ball to after a pick. And Dwight was actually undersized as a center. He was just too strong and athletic to be stopped.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    Yup. And since he never developed any real offensive moves outside of just being physically overwhelming, he was just someone you lobbed the ball to after a pick. And Dwight was actually undersized as a center. He was just too strong and athletic to be stopped.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-s9vfrpOM0&t=31s

    8 minutes of Dwight Howard post moves. 0 lobs

    Spin Moves
    Face-up drives
    Righty Jump Hooks
    Lefty Jump Hooks
    and of course some power seal-outs and dunks.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  9. #114
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    He just played to the game his strengths and I almost feel like he gets knocked for it.

    Dwight wouldn't post up and take fadeaway like Ewing. Dwight didn't face you up and then hit a bank shot like Duncan. He obviously wasn't doing the dream shake like Hakeem. He didn't have the touch or the footwork for that. Obviously that's why he's not a top 5 center. He's not a top 10 center. He's in that 11-15 range. He used his power to get great position. He used his speed to attack the middle with the jump hook or the base line with a spin move dunk.

    Ewing would go 10 for 20 and score 25 points.
    Dwight would go 7 for 12 and score 20 points.

    Does anybody really doubt how Dwight would have done with 8 more shots?


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  10. #115
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    Why didn't he take more shots?

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Why didn't he take more shots?
    Because he wasn't as skilled as Hakeem Olajuwon or as dominant as Shaq. That's also why he's not a top 10 center. Certainly doesn't mean he can't be #12.
    Last edited by KnicksorBust; 05-27-2020 at 09:21 AM.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-s9vfrpOM0&t=31s

    8 minutes of Dwight Howard post moves. 0 lobs

    Spin Moves
    Face-up drives
    Righty Jump Hooks
    Lefty Jump Hooks
    and of course some power seal-outs and dunks.
    I didn't mean to say Dwight wasn't capable of scoring but those weren't really any of his go-to moves. Even today, if you give Dwight the ball, what are the odds you can expect he will score the ball effectively using what you just typed? Those have to be under the right scenario vs the right player. Some of those things worked when he was younger and more agile/athletic but what you're seeing now, in the current season, is Dwight simply setting up lobs because that's really what he can still do at an elite level. Of course the guy has moves. It's whether or not you can rely on him to do is consistently and that wasn't something you got from Dwight.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    I didn't mean to say Dwight wasn't capable of scoring but those weren't really any of his go-to moves. Even today, if you give Dwight the ball, what are the odds you can expect he will score the ball effectively using what you just typed? Those have to be under the right scenario vs the right player. Some of those things worked when he was younger and more agile/athletic but what you're seeing now, in the current season, is Dwight simply setting up lobs because that's really what he can still do at an elite level. Of course the guy has moves. It's whether or not you can rely on him to do is consistently and that wasn't something you got from Dwight.
    In Orlando, I disagree. Yes they were his go-to moves. He was mostly a traditional post-up player who would face-up and/or back down after getting the feed. They even had a special pick and roll set that didn't lead to a lob but to a slip / skip pass / post up. I would know I was a hs basketball coach and put the play in for my team.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  14. #119
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    Peak Dwight was getting between 75% of his points from non-dunk post-ups and free throws.
    Last edited by KnicksorBust; 05-27-2020 at 12:25 PM.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    In Orlando, I disagree. Yes they were his go-to moves. He was mostly a traditional post-up player who would face-up and/or back down after getting the feed. They even had a special pick and roll set that didn't lead to a lob but to a slip / skip pass / post up. I would know I was a hs basketball coach and put the play in for my team.
    All of those moves relied on his athleticism and agility. When that went away along with the back injury, he was never able to replicate those moves. I'm referring to what he should be able to have figured out so that during his latter career, he could rely on them outside of just being physically superior.

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