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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    With all due respect I think this is a massively flawed argument. If Hakeem Olajuwon played in 2008 and dominated like Howard, would you would really knock him down because he had no competition? He can only outplay the centers put in front of him... and he did that. Easily for half a decade.
    Not really. Hakeem was a great player. Howard was not. He lacks skills that could transcend his game in other eras and against tougher competition. He stopped being relevant when other centers appeared actually. And they're not world beaters, they were average in terms of all time greatness.

    I do agree that for a brief part Howard was viewed as a top 3 or top 5 player in the league but that speaks more on the low quality of the league than the high quality of Howard.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    On bolded: You do realize that the vast majority have him top 25 all time at his position right? That is saying he's in the 98th percentile of all NBA centers. That's REALLY REALLY highly ranked by people. It's not some huge slight to say he's not in the 99th percentile.
    Sure. I get that. By the same token though then why are we having any of these debates? Why do sports forums even exist if every argument can be ended with some vague compliment toward the player(s) involved.

    "Kobe and LeBron were both legends. No need to debate them! Let's just sit in silence and stare at each other."

    You think Dwight Howard is a top 25 center and shouldn't be on the top players of all-time list. I think he's the 12th best center in NBA History and he should definitely be on the all-time list. I think that's a significant difference in opinion. I agree with the OP that he is criminally underrated.


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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Not really. Hakeem was a great player.
    But if he had no true competition then how could you prove it?

    Howard was not. He lacks skills that could transcend his game in other eras and against tougher competition.
    Lack skills?

    He dropped 20ppg on about 60% from the field.

    How many players in NBA History can claim the same?
    Shaq / McHale / Dantley / Barkley / Wilt / Howard

    He commanded double teams in the post every night.
    Just like a dominant big man would.

    He led the league in rebounding 5x.

    How many players in NBA History can claim the same?
    Wilt/Rodman/Moses/Russell/Howard

    He was a 3x DPOY.

    How many players in NBA History can claim the same?
    Mutombo/Wallace/Howard

    I would say his skills support my argument that he is a legend and a hall of famer.

    He stopped being relevant when other centers appeared actually. And they're not world beaters, they were average in terms of all time greatness.
    Who and when?

    I do agree that for a brief part Howard was viewed as a top 3 or top 5 player in the league but that speaks more on the low quality of the league than the high quality of Howard.
    See this is where I think we get stuck because I can say Howard was a top 3 or top 5 player in the league for over half a decade and you can just say "I agree. So what?"

    Your main argument that being the best center in the NBA from 2007 to 2013 doesn't matter because it wasn't the 80s or 90s to me is flawed logic. He can only player better than the other centers in the league... and he did. For a longer period than anyone outside the top 10 at his position.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Sure. I get that. By the same token though then why are we having any of these debates? Why do sports forums even exist if every argument can be ended with some vague compliment toward the player(s) involved.

    "Kobe and LeBron were both legends. No need to debate them! Let's just sit in silence and stare at each other."

    You think Dwight Howard is a top 25 center and shouldn't be on the top players of all-time list. I think he's the 12th best center in NBA History and he should definitely be on the all-time list. I think that's a significant difference in opinion. I agree with the OP that he is criminally underrated.
    "why are we having any of these debates?" ... because it's what we do here ... particularly with no actual sports to talk about.

    Howard is on the top players of all-time list, he just didn't make the top 100. Around 4800 NBA players have played the game, top 100 is just a little more special than Howard. If he was ranked 101 that's still great. If they decided to list the top 50 all time would you still have the same issue? Every time a list is made someone is on the cusp on the outside, and them being left out is not a slight or mean they are underrated.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    "why are we having any of these debates?" ... because it's what we do here ... particularly with no actual sports to talk about.
    That's my point.

    You are acting like him being underrated is not worth a debate because he is still in the "98th percentile." So is every athlete that goes pro if your broaden the scope.

    Howard is on the top players of all-time list, he just didn't make the top 100. Around 4800 NBA players have played the game, top 100 is just a little more special than Howard. If he was ranked 101 that's still great. If they decided to list the top 50 all time would you still have the same issue? Every time a list is made someone is on the cusp on the outside, and them being left out is not a slight or mean they are underrated.
    Of course it does! You are doing it again. He's underrated if he should be on the list and he's not on the list. I think he's 12th. You think he's closer to top 25. That is about 10 players. We aren't quibbling (great use of that word by me here) over 2 spots. That's 10 players JUST AT HIS POSITION. I probably have him ranked 50 spots higher than you on my all-time. That's a massive difference.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    That's my point.

    You are acting like him being underrated is not worth a debate because he is still in the "98th percentile." So is every athlete that goes pro if your broaden the scope.



    Of course it does! You are doing it again. He's underrated if he should be on the list and he's not on the list. I think he's 12th. You think he's closer to top 25. That is about 10 players. We aren't quibbling (great use of that word by me here) over 2 spots. That's 10 players JUST AT HIS POSITION. I probably have him ranked 50 spots higher than you on my all-time. That's a massive difference.
    I'm not acting like anything. I was responding to "no one respects it" when CLEARLY everybody respects it, just not to the same level you do.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I'm not acting like anything. I was responding to "no one respects it" when CLEARLY everybody respects it, just not to the same level you do.
    Serious question,

    Have you ever in your life heard Dwight Howard described as the historic transition from traditional post-up bigs to rim runners who was equally dangerous at both?

    Valade actually gave a great example on the last page and you either missed it or ignored it. If someone said "Michael Jordan is one of the 25 greatest players of all-time!"

    You think that's a slight or a compliment?


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    On bolded: You do realize that the vast majority have him top 25 all time at his position right? That is saying he's in the 98th percentile of all NBA centers. That's REALLY REALLY highly ranked by people. It's not some huge slight to say he's not in the 99th percentile.
    You can't name 25 centers better than Dwight. He's much higher than that. That's the slight against him.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    You can't name 25 centers better than Dwight. He's much higher than that. That's the slight against him.
    I agree it is a slight. It's not like I have him 21st and Scoots has him 23rd. That's just flipping a player or two. Our difference of opinion is 10 players at the position and probably 50 players overall. In an all-time ranking that's a massive disagreement.

    Valade's Jordan example is the best. Saying "Jordan is one of the top 20 players of all-time" is an insult even though it puts him in the 99th percentile.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  10. #100
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    Dwight is one player who because of his personality and lack of competitiveness throughout his career, gets penalized insanely by others when for more than a handful amount of years, no one could touch Dwight. If the mid to late 00's didn't have many elite centers, that's because the league changed and moved on from traditional center play. To discredit Dwight for being an elite center when centers were being phased out of the league is just unfair to him. He led the league in rebounding 5x, DPOY for 3x, and was an automatic 20/14 player with elite defense in his prime. It was Kobe, LeBron Dwight, and Dwyane Wade who were in almost all top five players during Dwight's prime. He was a monster.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    But if he had no true competition then how could you prove it?



    Lack skills?

    He dropped 20ppg on about 60% from the field.

    How many players in NBA History can claim the same?
    Shaq / McHale / Dantley / Barkley / Wilt / Howard

    He commanded double teams in the post every night.
    Just like a dominant big man would.

    He led the league in rebounding 5x.

    How many players in NBA History can claim the same?
    Wilt/Rodman/Moses/Russell/Howard

    He was a 3x DPOY.

    How many players in NBA History can claim the same?
    Mutombo/Wallace/Howard

    I would say his skills support my argument that he is a legend and a hall of famer.



    Who and when?



    See this is where I think we get stuck because I can say Howard was a top 3 or top 5 player in the league for over half a decade and you can just say "I agree. So what?"

    Your main argument that being the best center in the NBA from 2007 to 2013 doesn't matter because it wasn't the 80s or 90s to me is flawed logic. He can only player better than the other centers in the league... and he did. For a longer period than anyone outside the top 10 at his position.

    Prove what?

    Anthony Davis is in a similar situation now. The guy is skilled as **** and can play on both sides. When he retires he can safely say that he's one of the greatest of his position. Whether that's greatest 5 or 10 or 15 isfor another conversation, but the guy is legit.

    Howard was never that. Whereas Hakeem was that and more. The problem with rating Howard high is that he failed to adapt to a different style and he failed to be better than competition when it arrived. Yes he's athletic and he could rebound in an era where boxing out caused allergic reactions but how great was he?


    And what you posted adds nothing to the conversation. You're just barking about the same thing I called problematic before (ie no competition). Who cares if he rebounded more? Who cares if he gets 60% which is pretty much dunking the ball when you're not allowed to touch someone near the basket? The guy shot less than 40% past 5 feet and the majority of his shots came within the restricted area. It's a non-factor. This isn't a discussion to compare him with Andrew Bynum, Greg Oden, Al Jefferson and Tyson Chandler. This is where we compare him with Artis Gilmore, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Willis Reed, Mel Daniels [if we accept ABA as part of NBA's history], Robert Parish, Bob Lanier, Jack Sikma, Bob McAdoo, Dave Cowens, Rik Smits, Vlade Divac etc.

    You can say that he's better than Marcus Camby and Ben Wallace, but he's definitely off the top 15 centers of all time and it's debatable if he breaks in the top 20. Who cares if he rebounded more than Kevin Love and Carlos Boozer? Rebounding on its own doesn't say that much. What % of these were contested? What % of the team's rebounds were they? What % of rebounds did he won or lost in duels? How many rebounds did he get from his own miss in offense? How many rebounds did he receive from other players boxing out? It's just a number. I know it can be indicative, especially with consistency, but at the end of the day it doesn't say that much. Even if we concede that he's one of the greatest rebounders of all time, he didn't play in an era where 7 footers were common and he also didn't play at the same time as other great rebounders.
    There was Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett sure, but notice how Howard started leading those stat lines when Garnett joined a better team. Did Garnett forget how to rebound in Boston and averaged 3-4 less per game? Duncan's numbers slightly decreased when he was teamed up with DeJuan Blair also. As a number on its own it doesn't say that much. But even if it did, so what? Doesn't make Howard a great center.

    And I'm not sure he was that great of a defender, he was very overrated because he would jump very high and have spectacular blocks. He was very bad at marking and was lucky that he didn't face many great bigs. He couldn't defend the pick & roll very well but his team was strong enough to hide that. It was exposed when he moved to Houston and Los Angeles. You can blame D'Antoni all you want for it, but it wasn't the case when Tyosn Chandler was in New York.
    Dwight playing for any team that's not Orlando is never a DPOY contender, that's a fact. I'd agree that he's one of the best help defenders of the last 20 years, but he's bang average as a defender. And we haven't even seen him against quality centers.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Serious question,

    Have you ever in your life heard Dwight Howard described as the historic transition from traditional post-up bigs to rim runners who was equally dangerous at both?

    Valade actually gave a great example on the last page and you either missed it or ignored it. If someone said "Michael Jordan is one of the 25 greatest players of all-time!"

    You think that's a slight or a compliment?
    I think it's true, and in the perspective of all time it's really good.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    You can't name 25 centers better than Dwight. He's much higher than that. That's the slight against him.
    Never said I could, just said pretty much everyone agrees he's top 25 so the idea that he gets no respect is just silly. He gets a lot of respect, just not as much as some think he should get.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Never said I could, just said pretty much everyone agrees he's top 25 so the idea that he gets no respect is just silly. He gets a lot of respect, just not as much as some think he should get.
    Now substitute this exact sentence with Michael Jordan and tell me if you still think it'd be giving him respect.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Now substitute this exact sentence with Michael Jordan and tell me if you still think it'd be giving him respect.
    There's a huge flaw here. You're assuming that Dwight Howard is one of a handful of the greatest centers of all time. He's not. You need 4-5 hands actually. So he's fairly rated at top 20-25.

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