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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I have Reed above Ewing. Zo was better than Dwight it's just he flunked his sessions to prove it. it was also kind of flukish that Zo peaked during the lockout period when everyone else wasn't taking their physical fitness as seriously.

    to this day I believe Zo could've actually contended if only he didn't face Ewing every single year.

    I dont see the argument for anyone else on ur honorable mentions. what did Lanier accomplish?
    Zo had developed a nice J out to about 20 feet before the kidney. He never hit a jump shot after it. I agree with Reed above Pat but disagree with Zo above D12. Maybe if he had stayed healthy but he didnít


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  2. #77
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    #1.) KAJ
    #2.) Russell
    #3.) Wilt
    #4.) Shaq
    #5.) Hakeem
    #6.) Moses
    #7.) D-Rob
    #8.) Reed
    #9.) Walton
    #10.) Ewing
    #11.) Zo
    #12.) Dwight Howard

    Rest of my top 20 in no particular order: Cowens / McAdoo/ Thurmond / Parish / Unseld / Hayes / Mutombo / Lanier
    Unranked due to special circumstances: George Mikan


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  3. #78
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    Howard was the best defensive player in the league 3x.
    Howard was the best center in the NBA 5x.

    Nobody behind him on that list can claim the same.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Howard was the best defensive player in the league 3x.
    Howard was the best center in the NBA 5x.

    Nobody behind him on that list can claim the same.
    Because they played at the same time as players ranked ahead of him maybe?

    Care to mention where the first rival center of Howard ranks? You mentioned 21 players but I don't see any there.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Because they played at the same time as players ranked ahead of him maybe?

    Care to mention where the first rival center of Howard ranks? You mentioned 21 players but I don't see any there.
    With all due respect I think this is a massively flawed argument. If Hakeem Olajuwon played in 2008 and dominated like Howard, would you would really knock him down because he had no competition? He can only outplay the centers put in front of him... and he did that. Easily for half a decade.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    With all due respect I think this is a massively flawed argument. If Hakeem Olajuwon played in 2008 and dominated like Howard, would you would really knock him down because he had no competition? He can only outplay the centers put in front of him... and he did that. Easily for half a decade.
    Well part of is wondering if the weak competition is why Howard dominated like he did. I think it's definitely consensus opinion that center play in Dwight's era was weaker than in the past. So I would want to see him dominate his era to a greater degree than Hakeem, etc. dominated theirs.


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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    Well part of is wondering if the weak competition is why Howard dominated like he did. I think it's definitely consensus opinion that center play in Dwight's era was weaker than in the past. So I would want to see him dominate his era to a greater degree than Hakeem, etc. dominated theirs.
    Iíd expect him to dominate to a greater degree than Hakeem if I thought he was anywhere near Hakeem.

    But this is why itís all conjecture and opinion, if Hakeem were drafted when Dwight was would people be saying that his dominance was the result of weak competition? How would you prove it wasnít in the case of Hakeem if he played in Dwights era?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    Well part of is wondering if the weak competition is why Howard dominated like he did. I think it's definitely consensus opinion that center play in Dwight's era was weaker than in the past. So I would want to see him dominate his era to a greater degree than Hakeem, etc. dominated theirs.
    Don't you see that is the problem? There is no way for him to prove it to you. Duncan / KG/ STAT / Yao were probably the best bigs during his peak but he was clearly the top center in the NBA from 08 to 13.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Iíd expect him to dominate to a greater degree than Hakeem if I thought he was anywhere near Hakeem.

    But this is why itís all conjecture and opinion, if Hakeem were drafted when Dwight was would people be saying that his dominance was the result of weak competition? How would you prove it wasnít in the case of Hakeem if he played in Dwights era?
    Exactly. It actually pisses me off that D12 is probably the historic transition from traditional post-up bigs to rim runners and was equally dangerous at both. Yet no one respects it.


    Kristaps Porzingis
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Exactly. It actually pisses me off that D12 is probably the historic transition from traditional post-up bigs to rim runners and was equally dangerous at both. Yet no one respects it.
    The Baker has come. Believe the hype.


  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Don't you see that is the problem? There is no way for him to prove it to you. Duncan / KG/ STAT / Yao were probably the best bigs during his peak but he was clearly the top center in the NBA from 08 to 13.
    Dwight was phenomenal. I'm on the side that he's not appreciated enough.

    But I just think the center position was overall stronger in other eras. So pick whatever stat/measure you want... I'd want to see Dwight be better in that vs. guys from past eras. Just as a quick example, let's say we're comparing Dwight's rebound% to someone from the 90s. If those two were perfectly equal players, I'd expect Dwight to still have the higher rebound% because his era afforded him the luxury of playing against small ball where it's easier to grab boards.

    At the same time, Dwight also had to be more nimble to guard smaller centers out to the 3 point line in some cases, while still being able to defend the paint. So I definitely respect the unique challenges he had to face as well.


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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    Dwight was phenomenal. I'm on the side that he's not appreciated enough.

    But I just think the center position was overall stronger in other eras. So pick whatever stat/measure you want... I'd want to see Dwight be better in that vs. guys from past eras. Just as a quick example, let's say we're comparing Dwight's rebound% to someone from the 90s. If those two were perfectly equal players, I'd expect Dwight to still have the higher rebound% because his era afforded him the luxury of playing against small ball where it's easier to grab boards.

    At the same time, Dwight also had to be more nimble to guard smaller centers out to the 3 point line in some cases, while still being able to defend the paint. So I definitely respect the unique challenges he had to face as well.
    Then by that measure, hasnít Dwight proven himself? Heís 6th all-time in Rbd% and ahead of every 90ís Center (though behind Rodman). And his highest single season rbd% is higher than any of the other Centerís in question.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Then by that measure, hasnít Dwight proven himself? Heís 6th all-time in Rbd% and ahead of every 90ís Center (though behind Rodman). And his highest single season rbd% is higher than any of the other Centerís in question.
    I just picked a random example of a stat. I haven't given center rankings. My only comment on Dwight specifically was that I think he's underrated by people and that he was phenomenal in his prime (albeit I thought a short prime).

    My response was more of a general statement. I don't think playing against weaker competition in a different era disqualifies someone from being great. I would just expect a player in the weaker era to dominate to a higher degree.

    Like I said, I think Dwight was phenomenal during his ORL days. I think his own immaturities and failure to accept his limitations led to a short peak but those ORL years remain what they were. Just with how he's talked about by people I think he's very underrated. I haven't researched enough to put him into historical context though. Just in general though, with surface level knowledge, I feel he played weaker center competition on average than some from past eras. So if I were to do all the digging, I'd factor that into my interpretation of the numbers.


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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    Exactly. It actually pisses me off that D12 is probably the historic transition from traditional post-up bigs to rim runners and was equally dangerous at both. Yet no one respects it.
    On bolded: You do realize that the vast majority have him top 25 all time at his position right? That is saying he's in the 98th percentile of all NBA centers. That's REALLY REALLY highly ranked by people. It's not some huge slight to say he's not in the 99th percentile.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    On bolded: You do realize that the vast majority have him top 25 all time at his position right? That is saying he's in the 98th percentile of all NBA centers. That's REALLY REALLY highly ranked by people. It's not some huge slight to say he's not in the 99th percentile.
    But itís all about perspective. Imagine if someone said ďhow is it not respecting Michael Jordan to say heís top 25 all-time at his position? Thatís saying heís in the 98th percentile of all NBA players. Itís not some huge slightĒ

    Yes, if their ranking should be far higher it very much is a slight. Iím not saying Howard is MJ or even that he should be ranked higher. Iím saying that logic is flawed.

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