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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    I'm not saying he's a lazy guy who coasts by on connections either. But he is married to Mike Sherman's daughter and coached under Sean McVay when he was all the hype. (Never mind that 95% of the team were put together by Jeff Fisher). So yeah, I don't think Taylor's desire distinguishes him from other HC candidates.
    I'm not denying those connections help. But his willingness to do the work to rise up that fast had to be there.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    The Vance Joseph one strikes me as soooooo strange. So a few things on it:
    1 - With this rule, the Bronco's would not have benefitted because the pick in the 3rd round only moves up if you keep him 2 years and the 5th round only moves up if you keep him 3 years.
    2 - He had some god awful QB play pushed on him in Siemian, Osweiler, Lynch, Keenum (although that was off Keenum's good season in Minny). I think that part of the failure lies squarely on Elway/FO.
    3 - They have also had a pretty terrible O-Line as of late.

    This is my $0.02 'conspiracy' on Vance Joseph --- Elway knew after Peyton retired that he had a team too good for a top end pick, too bad to make it into the playoffs of make any noise. So Vance was brought in to be a media pinata for Elway to protect Elway from backlash when the team wasn't good (due to mostly QB play) while he bought himself time to find a new QB. And honestly if that's what it was, it's brilliant. Bring in a guy people think made sense for a HC job, but wasn't high on the list so people don't think this is going on outright, and doesn't hurt you with future hirings. Keep the core of the roster intact, except QB play so people will think you still have a SB quality team. Put the coach out there with those QB's and make him explain why they aren't good.
    I don't really think that's what went on. I would tend to believe what you do if not for the fact that Elway wanted to fire Joseph after the first season and hire Mike Shanahan. Elway was told by Joe Ellis that he couldn't hire Shanahan but could fire Joseph if he wanted to.... But the coaching pool was pretty dry that year so Elway decided against it.

    The thing with Joseph is that it was clear from day one that he was in over his head. Some of the answers he gave in press conferences were mind boggling. Like in his second year, he still didn't know who the guys were that reviewed plays to tell him whether or not to challenge it, and he had no clue of their process on how they come to a decision.

    Elway's right hand man is Matt Russell. Matt Russell and Vance Joseph are good friends and former college teammates. It's more likely imo that Elway was talked into the hiring by Matt Russell.

  3. #48
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    8/17 of the coaches under Tomlin are minorities, which I believe is the highest in the NFL. But that doesn't count the dozens of assistant coaches to those guys, quality control coaches.

    Back in '06 it was that Panthers with 10/18, but again, they didn't count all the extra coaches.

    The issue is, as I keep searching articles, that they don't often make it past that point if they even get to this high of a point, and the issue that keeps coming up is what's referred to "casual racism" where the ownership/GM/coach tends to want to spend time with someone with similar life experiences, making it hard for minorities to keep coming up. So going back to the point of creating a better pipeline, you stuff the field of coaches with minorities, sooner or later the owners will have to start picking minorities into higher spots. And from what I gather, the issue is even worse on the front office side, yet most turn a blind eye to it because no one sees the scouts that head up that side of operations.
    This is a fair point. I don't love the proposal, but the qb coach peice of it is kind of good. Qb coaches are disproportionately hired into higher roles. So getting minorities into those roles is key.

    Unfortunately, I think part of the problem is partially out of the control of the nfl to an extent too. I know the packers this year created a fellowship program for former players. It wasn't official, but they did something similar last year too. Between the 2 guys last year and 1 this year, they'll have 3 former minority players through the program. But former players aren't always the greatest coaches. Alot of the good coaches are failed college players, not 8 year pros. And alot of the programs run by the nfl go to the former players. Not saying that's bad, but it may not be super effective either.

    So alot of it may need to start at the college level. And it's finding coaches who are the backup tight end at Saginaw Valley St or the 3rd string safety and core special teamer from Utah State. And alot of those types get into grad assistant stuff at the college ranks and it's the college coach's relationship with a pro coach that then gets them a similar position, like quality control, at the pro level. I'm not sure how you tap into that, but it seems like that's where the change needs to be made.

    I'm too lazy to build a profile of existing coaches, but I'm guessing if you did (from memory), you're not going to see a bunch of former pros. So I think the most valuable exercise isn't to incentivise teams for hiring minorities into the top positions, it's figuring out a way to fill the pipeline with minority coaches. Take race and nepotism out and study the path to head coaching. Where did these guys start? How did they start? What level did they play to? How good of players were they actually?

    I think you're going to find there's a decent amount of coaches weren't that great of players. Alot of them probably played D2 or D3. Alot of them started at small levels in their colleges and potentially followed their college coach somewhere and used some of those connections.

    So let's figure out how to get minority coaches into those positions. It won't be easy, but if you start at the lowest level and work up, I think it'll be better. If they do this program, I think what happens is you'll see an increase in minority hires, but if thoae guys don't succeed, we'll be right back tk where we started. So really build the pipeline with really good, hopefully successful minority coaches and it should help itself.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by zookman65 View Post
    Poor white people. So disadvantaged.
    I wasn’t talking about white people. I was talking about all people and how we’ve dealt with race issues over time.


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  6. #51
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    When I was in High School it was actually my dream to be an NFL coach. I always loved the game and as much as I wanted to be an NFL player it's pretty obvious that wasn't going to happen.

    When you look at the NFL, it's predominantly African American. The coaches, as we've discussed, are predominantly white. I wonder if there's any physiological impact of that. Are white people more quick to pursue a career in coaching while African Americans are more likely to hang onto the dream of playing.

    Just looking at how predominantly African American college and NFL teams are, I imagine that the cutoff of people who don't make it from high school to college and then from college to the NFL are more white than black, meaning the African Americans that are into the game get to keep on playing. So when those whites are kicked out of the game, do they turn to coaching as a way to stay involved.

    I wonder what the demographics even are among college players that do not make the NFL. Are white players more likely to transition to coaching compared to African Americans that hang around on practice squads or join other pro leagues hoping for a look.


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  7. #52
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    Should teams get an improved draft slot for having white cornerbacks?
    Chicago CubsChicago BlackhawksBuffalo BillsSouthern Illinois University Salukis

    Naomi OsakaAngelique KerberBianca Andreescu

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Should teams get an improved draft slot for having white cornerbacks?
    I believe they should. Panthers should pick first every year for having a white RB who also happens to be the best RB in football.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Should teams get an improved draft slot for having white cornerbacks?
    Should the Steelers get the #1 pick for having the longest tenured minority coach?

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    I believe they should. Panthers should pick first every year for having a white RB who also happens to be the best RB in football.
    There was definitely bias against McCaffrey because he is a white RB. If he were black, he would have been a Top 10 pick in the draft.
    Last edited by QB_Eagles; 05-17-2020 at 04:05 AM.

  11. #56
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    Eric bienemy is the poster child for why there needs to be changes.....but it is Uber short sighted to think this is the change to make. Is it really as simple as bias at that level, or does the funnel need work at lower levels. A former quarterback has a better shot at becoming a head coach, and they're all white. A lot of black former players made enough money they do other things when they retire.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Eric bienemy is the poster child for why there needs to be changes.....but it is Uber short sighted to think this is the change to make. Is it really as simple as bias at that level, or does the funnel need work at lower levels. A former quarterback has a better shot at becoming a head coach, and they're all white. A lot of black former players made enough money they do other things when they retire.
    To hear from some minority coaches it's both. They need to work on the bias at the top end, but they need to help get them in at the lower levels.

    I thought this was an interesting one I read too. Bienemy and Leftwitch are the only two black OC's in the NFL.

    Meanwhile 8 DC's are black, and 6 coaches listed as assistant HC's are black (2 are also DC).

    So if you were to say the pool of HC hirings is OC/DC/AHC, that's 14 of 80-ish (not all teams have assistant head coaches). So 17.5% of the pool from NFL coaches you could pick from is black. Meanwhile about 40% of position coaches are black. So moving from a position coach to a coordinator has also been a roadblock, so they struggle to make the move up to coordinator.

    Now on the offensive side it might be explained as few OC's were something other than a former QB or a QB-coach before moving up. Maybe with more and more black QB's in the NFL, it's something we see a delay on for the next few years and in 15-20 years we see more black offensive coordinators. However on the defensive side, the DC's seem to come from anywhere on the positional coach chart. So to me that shows that there is something going on that they struggle to make the step up into the DC position.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    There was definitely bias against McCaffrey because he is a white RB. If he were black, he would have been a Top 10 pick in the draft.
    The next Payton Hillis.


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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    DeMeco Ryans is just one example, by the way. There are a lot of black former players who serve as assistant coaches. They are often the only black people that the white head coaches, owners, GMs know. The number of former NFL players among white coaches is much lower.

    I just looked at the Eagles as well. The only black positional coaches are Duce Staley and Marquand Manuel, both former NFL players. Among the assistants there are Matthew Harper, who played under Chip Kelly at Oregon and was hired by him in 2013, and Nathan Ollie, who was a graduate assistant at Tennessee and worked with Derek Barnett -- not sure that is the reason why he is with the Eagles now though.
    I wonder if that's because they've already gotten paid. I mean, everyone is saying Tony Romo would make a great coach, but why go back to the NFL and go through the coaches grind when he can get paid the same (or more) for broadcasting, which is much less of a grind and allows him to pursue golfing more.

    The other thing to consider is that many former NFL players can parlay their likeness and fame into TV and radio jobs post-career. For example, the following Redskins players make a career in either of those ways right now- Clinton Portis, Brian Mitchell, Santana Moss, Fred Smoot, Chris Cooley, LaVar Arrington and I'm sure I am missing some. Meanwhile, a lot of the lower level coaches such as quality control guys are college players who maybe never got their NFL shot, and immediately jumped into coaching. Some of them might even start coaching in college as GA's after their playing career like Kirby Smart.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Eric bienemy is the poster child for why there needs to be changes.....but it is Uber short sighted to think this is the change to make. Is it really as simple as bias at that level, or does the funnel need work at lower levels. A former quarterback has a better shot at becoming a head coach, and they're all white. A lot of black former players made enough money they do other things when they retire.
    He and Kevin Stefanski were the two names that I wanted the Redskins to hire. Bienemy may have been hurt by the Chiefs Super Bowl run though and not being able to officially commit to the job until after the team lost.

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