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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Nash was the most entertaining player in the league for years. Your not hard. You are just wrong. He a was free wheeling, fast paced, innovator. Didn’t play much D but fun as hell on O

    Coincidentally, I was watching today the 2001 West Round 1 Game 5 between Dallas and Utah. Veteran Stockton vs young Nash. Both pulled off some amazing passes, could argue that Stockton had more needle passes, but Nash made a couple of crazy ones. Was nice to see those two again.

    And that's the problem with Nash. He's a purely offensive guy. He thrived in a system that didn't give a damn about defense but you can get exposed in the playoffs.

    Either way, Nash is definitely amongst the top 5 spectacular guards of the 2000s (Vince Carter #1, Allen Iverson #2 and I'd say Kobe and Wade complete the list for the five).

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    My top twenty is based on what I see and have seen.

    You can find all sorts of top 50, top 74, top 100 lists that robotically drone on about career stats, etc. That's their prerogative.

    My prerogative is who were the most skilled guys, who were the guys who were best in their prime, who were the guys who were most innovative, who were the guys who were most artistic.

    I lowered the values of guys who were very mechanical. They were good and had tremendous career stats, and, if that's your criterion, fine. It's not mine. I put guys like Stockton, Nash, McHale, Havlicek, a bunch others into this category. Lack of artistry, innovation compared to some of the others.

    Doncic, barring injury, will have career stats that are better than all of the guys I just mentioned. In my mind, he is already a great player and does things that the mechanical types could never do. I don't feel like waiting twenty years to give him his due.
    Two years of NBA play total and about 3/4 of a season at at stellar level are hardly worthy to be top ten on any list.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    Cousy was a great innovator and for decades if anyone made a great pass in schoolyards, everybody would say "whoa Cousy". You won't find that just by looking at his stats - what do you base your disregard for his great reputation into the Seventies?

    Mikan was considered Player of the Century thru the early Sixties. He totally innovated center play in his day. Why would you discount that?

    Maravich averaged 44 points a game at LSU for his entire college career. He was also the most entertaining player in the NBA for years. Why is all that to be ignored?

    Williams - I can't defend Williams other than I just loved watching him play, more than most of the other guys on the list. He was innovative and entertaining and highly skilled. Great to watch. Nobody agrees with me on Williams.
    I guess it depends on what your criteria is. If you're a fan of innovation and accolades then sure, most of those dudes belong. But in terms of on the court impact, who I'd want to give me the best chance of winning, there are quite a few guys I'd pick before them.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    I confess. I didn't go out of my way to watch Nash much. I saw him early, wasn't impressed, and assumed he was another Stockton and sort of dismissed him in my mind from then on. Sounds like I might be wrong about him.
    Stockton is probably the most misunderstood player of his generation. He's the king of longevity no doubt. No one will ever touch the volume of assists he got. But the thing with Stockton is that the more you look into tape studies, the more you look at his inability to maintain a high impact in the playoffs - when competition scales up, the more you realize his severe limitations.

    Stockton not being a scoring threat hurts his overall playmaking a ton. When he gets among the trees he's not able to probe like Magic or Nash or CP3 and create scoring opportunities for his teammates by being a scoring threat himself and demanding attention from the defense. Along with this, a lot of his assists came in the form of low skill/low leverage passes where the off ball player (most often Malone) does all of the work away from the ball to create the scoring opportunity, and Stockton is just there to feed him the entry pass.

    My other big issue with Stockton is that he got bodied quite a bit by bigger point guards in the playoffs. Whether it be Terry Porter, Gary Payton, hell even Kenny Smith went off against him. He never really scaled up his play in the postseason. Still an all time great. One of the best transition playmakers ever, insane longevity, and lead a string of high level Utah regular season offenses in a 4 or 5 year span. But yeah, Stockton was never the dude to make everything happen for his team's offense like Nash was.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    I guess it depends on what your criteria is. If you're a fan of innovation and accolades then sure, most of those dudes belong. But in terms of on the court impact, who I'd want to give me the best chance of winning, there are quite a few guys I'd pick before them.
    If winning is your criteria, then Cousy and Mikan are your guys. Cousy was on a bunch of the great Celtic championship teams of the Fifties and Sixties. He was their point guard and made the offense go. Mikan led the great Lakers teams of the Fifties to six titles in a seven year stretch. He was their best player during that run, by far. Maravich and Williams never won anything, but they were fun to watch lose.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Two years of NBA play total and about 3/4 of a season at at stellar level are hardly worthy to be top ten on any list.
    Let's make a date to meet again on this forum in twenty years when he will have outdone all of these guys statistically by a lot. He's not going to forget how to be a great player. If he gets hurt and it ruins his career, that would be bad. Other than that, he's a lock.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    Let's make a date to meet again on this forum in twenty years when he will have outdone all of these guys statistically by a lot. He's not going to forget how to be a great player. If he gets hurt and it ruins his career, that would be bad. Other than that, he's a lock.
    Cool, let's do that and if he can sustain his level of play and add to his resume, you will be right. Until then, I will remain in the present and not attempt to project into the future on my lists.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Cool, let's do that and if he can sustain his level of play and add to his resume, you will be right. Until then, I will remain in the present and not attempt to project into the future on my lists.
    Do you rank Drazen Petrovic on any lists?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Do you rank Drazen Petrovic on any lists?
    Sucks what happened to him. Too bad he didn't get more seasons. Hard to say.

  10. #40
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    Petrovic

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Sucks what happened to him. Too bad he didn't get more seasons. Hard to say.
    As I recall, I didn't pay much attention to Drazen Petrovic. He had knocked around the league for a while. When he died, I was surprised at all of the accolades and it turns out that his last couple of years in the league, he had improved tremendously. He sort of snuck up on everybody.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Sucks what happened to him. Too bad he didn't get more seasons. Hard to say.
    He wasn't planning to anyway.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortforshort View Post
    As I recall, I didn't pay much attention to Drazen Petrovic. He had knocked around the league for a while. When he died, I was surprised at all of the accolades and it turns out that his last couple of years in the league, he had improved tremendously. He sort of snuck up on everybody.
    He got drafted to the worst possible scenario.. he had the talent, just couldnt get the playing time
    YOU JUST MADE THE LIST!!!!!

    HAPPY RUSSEV DAY!!!

    2019 PSD Fantasy Nascar Champion

  13. #43
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    Doncic this season alone should qualify for a top-ten spot. Maybe I'm forgetting a few names but he's reached a level that very few white dudes have. And it's not just the numbers. It's the fact that he has real basketball skill that can easily last for the next decade.

    Dirk
    Stockton
    Bird
    Pau Gasol
    Pistol Pete
    Nash
    West
    McHale
    Drazen
    Luka
    Havlicek
    Bill Walton
    Chris Mullin
    Kevin Love
    Rick Barry
    J.J. Redick
    Peja

    Few more I am missing but equally as good IMO.

  14. #44
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    Broussard brought this up with his pal whatshisface but they were wondering where all the American born white talent has gone. proliferation of euros prove it's not just genetics.

    what is it?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Broussard brought this up with his pal whatshisface but they were wondering where all the American born white talent has gone. proliferation of euros prove it's not just genetics.

    what is it?
    They actually learn how to play basketball.

    The NBA is now filled with raw talent that came through the high schools and players never really develop. The white Americans are in general much less athletic so they don't advance so much. It's that simple.

    Guys like Kobe were saying this for years. Americans aren't taught the game.

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