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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Holmgren and Reeves were at least above average coaches...and were I believe Favre and Elway's primary coaches? But yeah, those 2 QBs more than most proved they could be great even if their HC wasn't

    Is that why Brady left? to prove he could be great even if his HC isn't? Not denigrating Arians, he's certainly no Brad Childress or Leslie Frazier, but he's also no BB or Walsh.
    Oh I agree on above average. Maybe we should throw McNair on an all times great list for having to deal with Jeff Fishers bull ****. But year Reeves and Holmgren were Elway and Favre's primary coaches. Not bad, but not great either.

    And I think that's likely why Brady left, and frankly I think BB kinda pushed him out the door. They both want to prove that they were the reason that team was so great.

  2. #62
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    I think what often gets ignored with QBs like Montana, Marino, Elway, etc. is that they *also* were beneficiaries of rule changes in the passing game. In 1978 the rule was added that DBs couldn't contact a receiver beyond 5 yards of the LOS, and in 1979-1980 several rules were added that protected WRs and QBs from hits -- not to the same extent as today but still significantly more than before. The reason the best QBs of the 70s like Staubach, Bradshaw, Griese, Tarkenton, Stabler, Anderson have such poor stats isn't because the QBs of the 80s onward could simply throw the ball better.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Oh I agree on above average. Maybe we should throw McNair on an all times great list for having to deal with Jeff Fishers bull ****. But year Reeves and Holmgren were Elway and Favre's primary coaches. Not bad, but not great either.

    And I think that's likely why Brady left, and frankly I think BB kinda pushed him out the door. They both want to prove that they were the reason that team was so great.
    If we focus solely on a QB's individual performance (as far as that is even possible) then McNair probably ranks very highly at least for the modern era.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    I think what often gets ignored with QBs like Montana, Marino, Elway, etc. is that they *also* were beneficiaries of rule changes in the passing game. In 1978 the rule was added that DBs couldn't contact a receiver beyond 5 yards of the LOS, and in 1979-1980 several rules were added that protected WRs and QBs from hits -- not to the same extent as today but still significantly more than before. The reason the best QBs of the 70s like Staubach, Bradshaw, Griese, Tarkenton, Stabler, Anderson have such poor stats isn't because the QBs of the 80s onward could simply throw the ball better.
    Good point re the rule changes........comparing stats between eras never really works anyway, especially in football and the significant increase in the passing game. In the first years with some of those rule changes, the QBs would greatly benefit while DBs are adjusting to the new rules
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    I find it really hard to compare guys from early days of football to the 60's so I'm going to leave them out. So my list goes:
    1.) John Elway
    2.) Dan Marino
    3.) Steve Young
    4.) Tom Brady
    5.) Peyton Manning
    6.) Brett Favre
    7.) Joe Montana
    8.) Aaron Rodgers
    9.) Fran Tarkenton
    10.) Roger Staubach
    Honorable Mentions: Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Ken Anderson, Kurt Warner, Jim Kelly
    Interesting to see Young over Montana.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperX22 View Post
    Interesting to see Young over Montana.
    I assume it would be to a lot of people. But, in my opinion Young was the better quarterback. I think Montana is overrated by too many people.

  7. #67
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    Well I'm about to break the rules and go deeper than 10 bc it's so subjective depending on your own criteria.

    1. Joe Montana
    2. Dan Marino
    3. Johnny Unitas
    4. Otto Graham
    5. Steve Young
    6. Brett Favre
    7. Peyton Manning
    8. Sonny Jurgensen
    9. Roger Staubach
    10. Fran Tarkenton
    11. Aaron Rodgers
    12. Norm Van Brocklin
    13. Tom Brady
    14. John Elway
    15. Randall Cunningham
    16. Dan Fouts
    17. Kenny Anderson
    18. Warren Moon
    19. Len Dawson
    20. Drew Brees
    21. Bart Start
    22. Ken Stabler
    23. Jim Kelly
    24. Boomer Esiason
    25. Joe Nameth

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I mean, there's people who try to put Peyton over Brady and he had a trash division, multiple byes that he choked away, and a very good (though overrated IMO) HC. He also had weapons out the *** his entire career. But Peyton fans make every excuse in the book for why he only won 1 SB during his time as a good player.

    Honestly it's not just Peyton. Every top 5 QB is like this. Look at Joe Montana. Most of his career was spent with a stacked team and one of the GOAT HCs, yet so many people were brainwashed to never question him as the GOAT QB until Brady won #4. If you want to talk about a player who gets overrated by rings, it fits Montana just as well as anyone.
    The fact that Peyton drug ****** coaches like Caldwell and Fox to the Super Bowl should be enough of a reason to put him in the discussion lol.

    But in all seriousness, I think he had one of the worst coaching situations for his career out of all the greats. Jim Mora, Caldwell, Fox, and Kubiak were all either awful or meh head coaches and he had an above average head coach sprinkled in the middle between them all.

    Manning had some offensive weapons but let's not act like Brady didn't. And Brady benefited from having a much better defense most years. Plus the less than stellar head coaches for Manning.

    I don't know who the goat is but I will say that personally I was much more afraid to play against Manning in his heyday than Brady. Manning was straight up scary. Honestly if in 2006 you would have told me that either Brady or Manning's team would get caught stealing defensive signals, I would have bet money that it was Manning. It seemed that no matter what your defense did, Manning knew what they were running and would proceed to just absolutely dissect it.

    No matter where people rank Manning, everyone has to admit that we'll likely never see a QB as cerebral as him again.

  9. #69
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    The problem that i have with guys like Brady and Bradshaw that I don't have with someone like Montana is that at no point in their careers can they say they were the best QB in the NFL for a significant stretch of time. The stats don't necessarily support Montana being the goat, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that there was a better QB in the 80's. That and he never lost when he got to the Super Bowl. He didn't really play great in all of those games, but he found a way to get it done.

    He never choked like Brady on arguably the most stacked team in NFL history blowing a perfect season. And he never got out dueled by a backup QB in the Super Bowl either. Brady also wasn't the best of even his generation. In the 1st half of his career that was Peyton. In the later half it has been Rodgers. That's a big problem for me when discussing Brady as the goat. He is certainly one of the greatest to ever play QB and a 1st ballot HOF, but you can't be the goat when you aren't the greatest of your own generation regardless of how many rings you have.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    The fact that Peyton drug ****** coaches like Caldwell and Fox to the Super Bowl should be enough of a reason to put him in the discussion lol.

    But in all seriousness, I think he had one of the worst coaching situations for his career out of all the greats. Jim Mora, Caldwell, Fox, and Kubiak were all either awful or meh head coaches and he had an above average head coach sprinkled in the middle between them all.

    Manning had some offensive weapons but let's not act like Brady didn't. And Brady benefited from having a much better defense most years. Plus the less than stellar head coaches for Manning.

    I don't know who the goat is but I will say that personally I was much more afraid to play against Manning in his heyday than Brady. Manning was straight up scary. Honestly if in 2006 you would have told me that either Brady or Manning's team would get caught stealing defensive signals, I would have bet money that it was Manning. It seemed that no matter what your defense did, Manning knew what they were running and would proceed to just absolutely dissect it.

    No matter where people rank Manning, everyone has to admit that we'll likely never see a QB as cerebral as him again.
    Which is why it's surprising to me it appears his interest would be stronger going into management or broadcasting vs coaching...because of all current/recently retired QBs, there's noone that to me seems better suited to do it and do it well.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperX22 View Post
    The problem that i have with guys like Brady and Bradshaw that I don't have with someone like Montana is that at no point in their careers can they say they were the best QB in the NFL for a significant stretch of time. The stats don't necessarily support Montana being the goat, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that there was a better QB in the 80's. That and he never lost when he got to the Super Bowl. He didn't really play great in all of those games, but he found a way to get it done.

    He never choked like Brady on arguably the most stacked team in NFL history blowing a perfect season. And he never got out dueled by a backup QB in the Super Bowl either. Brady also wasn't the best of even his generation. In the 1st half of his career that was Peyton. In the later half it has been Rodgers. That's a big problem for me when discussing Brady as the goat. He is certainly one of the greatest to ever play QB and a 1st ballot HOF, but you can't be the goat when you aren't the greatest of your own generation regardless of how many rings you have.
    I hate all of these arguments.

    the logic behind this argument is that it's basically better to lose before the superbowl than to make it to the superbowl and then lose.

    it's just stupid.

    i mean that logic implies that going to the superbowl 12 times and losing 6 of them is worse than going to the superbowl 3 times but winning all 3, while getting 1st round exits every other year
    Quote Originally Posted by NormSizedMidget View Post
    It's different now than it was.

    When he won the second one, Giants fans are here we're outside of their minds.
    That quote always cracks me up.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    The fact that Peyton drug ****** coaches like Caldwell and Fox to the Super Bowl should be enough of a reason to put him in the discussion lol.

    But in all seriousness, I think he had one of the worst coaching situations for his career out of all the greats. Jim Mora, Caldwell, Fox, and Kubiak were all either awful or meh head coaches and he had an above average head coach sprinkled in the middle between them all.

    Manning had some offensive weapons but let's not act like Brady didn't. And Brady benefited from having a much better defense most years. Plus the less than stellar head coaches for Manning.
    Tbf Peyton's good years in Denver were basically just running his own offense while Fox just worried about the defense. It'd be impressive to say he took Fox to a SB if Fox hadn't been to a SB and another NFCCG with Jake Delhomme and made it to the divisional round with Tim Tebow the year before. The Caldwell SB appearance had as much to do with weak AFC playoff games as it did him doing anything spectacular; I mean the Mark Sanchez Jets weren't exactly the toughest AFCCG matchup.

    Peyton was great, there's no refuting that, but he had stacked offenses his entire career and only walked away with 1 SB in 15 years of elite play. It's easy to say "well what if he had better defenses?" But what if he had worse offenses? I think we see Rodgers fans make the same excuses for him; you can't expect a team to have a great offense AND a great defense.

    Peyton's in everyone's top 5, but it's a tough sale for me to put him over Brady in any scenario.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperX22 View Post
    The problem that i have with guys like Brady and Bradshaw that I don't have with someone like Montana is that at no point in their careers can they say they were the best QB in the NFL for a significant stretch of time. The stats don't necessarily support Montana being the goat, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that there was a better QB in the 80's. That and he never lost when he got to the Super Bowl. He didn't really play great in all of those games, but he found a way to get it done.

    He never choked like Brady on arguably the most stacked team in NFL history blowing a perfect season. And he never got out dueled by a backup QB in the Super Bowl either. Brady also wasn't the best of even his generation. In the 1st half of his career that was Peyton. In the later half it has been Rodgers. That's a big problem for me when discussing Brady as the goat. He is certainly one of the greatest to ever play QB and a 1st ballot HOF, but you can't be the goat when you aren't the greatest of your own generation regardless of how many rings you have.
    This is full of awful arguments. Brady never had an argument for best QB? Also, Dan Marino played in the 80s, so Montana wasn't peerless.

    Montana is incredibly overrated though. Look at all the talent around him after his first SB. The fact that he only made 4 with those rosters with no salary cap was pretty suspect. Nobody talks about the years where he got booted in the playoffs.

    BuT mUh 60% cOmPlEtion

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    This is full of awful arguments. Brady never had an argument for best QB? Also, Dan Marino played in the 80s, so Montana wasn't peerless.

    Montana is incredibly overrated though. Look at all the talent around him after his first SB. The fact that he only made 4 with those rosters with no salary cap was pretty suspect. Nobody talks about the years where he got booted in the playoffs.
    Did Montana ever lose to Eli with an 18-0 team and arguably the best offense ever assembled? Brady did. Did Montana ever lose in the Super Bowl to a backup QB? Brady did. In the early part of the 80's Montana was the best QB in the NFL. In the mid 80's? Yeah Dan was the best QB in the NFL. Did he have great teams? Yes. What SB winning QB didnt have a great team around him? There has to be something said for getting to the big game 4 times and winning every single time.

  15. #75
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    1. Manning
    2. Marino
    3. Favre
    4. Montana
    5. Brady
    6. Elway
    7. Brees
    8. Staubach
    9. Young
    10. Rodgers

    Put Graham, Unitas, Starr where ever you want. It's hard enough comparing 2010s QBs to 2000s, much less 90s or 80s QBs. That's why I like baseball historical comparisons best. Virtually nobody argues that Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Williams, and Bonds are the best 5 hitters ever. Sure someone might scoot out Bonds for Mantle, or Gehrig for Musial, but for the most part they hold true for every fan of the game. Not so with football.

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