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  1. #1
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    Is it time to look for a new GM and coach?

    Matt Lafleur took a 10 - 6 talent level football team and produced a 13 -3 record and took his team within 1 game of the Superbowl. Would Green Bay be wise to move on from him after 1 very successful season?

    Brian Gutekunst, last off season, did what Packer fans have wanted for years, by dipping heavily into free agency to address some of the teams defensive needs and it appears he hit the lottery with the additions of the Smith Brothers and Adrian Amos. Has he wore out his welcome in Green Bay?

    The answer to the 2nd question is yes and the answer to the 1st question is maybe. It appears that the 2 of them have decided it's their team and it's time for a rebuild after a 13 -3 season and an nfc championship appearance. After a 2019 draft which can best be described as a blown opportunity, the 2020 draft is beyond description. Normally you need to wait a season or 2 to judge a draft class, but that's not necessary in this case. It's painfully obvious that this draft finishes 32nd out of 32 teams. We drafted the QB of the future to piss off the best QB ever to play in round 1. In round 2 we took a 4th round RB and in round 3 we took a 5th round TE/H Back.

    Everyone likes to say that Aaron Rodgers didn't have his best year and that he's not the same player he was 8 to 10 years ago and that may be true and then again it might not be. I watched a replay of the opening game of the season a year after we won the Superbowl the other day. Rodgers threw to Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, Randall Cobb and Jermichael Finley. Now he throws to Devante Adams. So has Aaron Rodgers ability declined or is it just that 5 was greater than 1?

    So here we sit in late April, knowing that we have a 0% chance to win the Superbowl this season and it didn't have to be that way. So yes it's time to fire Brian Gutekunst from the Packers GM position and if Matt Lefleur can't apologize to Aaron Rodgers and mend the relationship, it might be time to fire him too.
    Last edited by HacksawButch; 04-29-2020 at 10:58 AM.

  2. #2
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    I'm not a fan of the draft, but this is one of your worst takes yet, and that's saying something. Right now we have the 8th best super bowl odds. That's hardly a 0% chance of winning it.

    San Fran is a bad matchup for us. That being said, you don't neccesarily have to beat them either. Seattle is a good matchup against San Fran and we are a bad matchup for Seattle. Id argue we are a decent matchup against New Orleans, who should have beaten San Fran if they could tackle kittle.

    But lafluer and Gute have earned the benefit of the doubt. You dont fire them because you don't like 1 draft before anyone even plays a snap.

  3. #3
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    Lol címon man are you serious? I hated this last draft but itís wayyyyyy to early to be talking about this. And if anything the next person that should be relived of his duties is Mark Murphy. Heís the one that picked Gute and LaFluer. Iíd say that have at least the next 3 years or so before we talk about making changes.

  4. #4
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    No.

    This team made huge strides in year 1 under this regime.
    Move on based off of 1 draft that we don't like on paper? For all we know this could turn out to be an excellent draft.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I'm not a fan of the draft, but this is one of your worst takes yet, and that's saying something. Right now we have the 8th best super bowl odds. That's hardly a 0% chance of winning it.

    San Fran is a bad matchup for us. That being said, you don't neccesarily have to beat them either. Seattle is a good matchup against San Fran and we are a bad matchup for Seattle. Id argue we are a decent matchup against New Orleans, who should have beaten San Fran if they could tackle kittle.

    But lafluer and Gute have earned the benefit of the doubt. You dont fire them because you don't like 1 draft before anyone even plays a snap.
    You forgot the Bucs. They will be a tough team. Probably as good as us and Seattle.

    Also our def balled out for like the first 6-7 games then teams caught on: and now we are worse yet on def. my worry is we take a big step back defensively ...


    At least 7 make it this year bc I bet we are 7-8th best in nfc record wise at the end of the year

  6. #6
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    Where you stand doesn't matter when you win the division, which should always be the goal.

    And my list wasn't neccesarily a comprehensive list of good nfc teams, just pointing out that despite getting smoked by San Fran twice, one team that we beat and one team that I think we match up okay with definitely could have beat them. It's fairly common, espeically amongst the mid tier "good" teams that sometimes you match up better against one team than another. And that team may match up better against a different team.

    The way to beat San Fran is to be strong in the middle of the field. They have some guys capable of making big plays at wr, but generally speaking, their wr's aren't that great. You don't need great corners. And since everything is built on the run and kittle, if you're strong at IDL, ILB and S, you can take some of that away. You don't even really need an elite pass rush against them. That's not our strengths. While I agree our defense could regress, our strengths are outside pass rush and our corners are pretty solid cover guys.

    But those strengths are actually a solid matchup against say Seattle. King and jaire are both physically good matches for Lockett and metcalf. Our outside rush helps against Russ. They like to try to run it, but our IDL is good enough against their below average IOL. But they have been a tough matchup for San Fran. So it all sort of depends on how the cookie crumbles for us. But there's definitely a not crazy path that lines up for us with good matchups. It's impossible to tell exactly, but I actually think all things considered, tampa isn't a horrible matchup for us either.

  7. #7
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    Honestly, this draft could end up looking brilliant 4 years from now. And we won't know any earlier than that. The only thing I don't like about the Love pick is trading up to get him. But if they got the pick right and he ends up being the guy, then that will be a very small price to pay. I don't like our 2nd or 3rd round picks at all. Both seem like reaches. The rest of the draft I'm fine with.

    Also, I think people are too hung up on last year's record and making it to the NFCC game. We were lucky to be there. Our supposedly much improved defense still finished, what, like 20th overall? Our defense still isn't good. Bottom line is this team still has quite a ways to go before it's legitimately a contender. I hope it's not that bad, but we could almost be like the Bears last year- wildly overachieved the year before and then came back to reality. I think 9-10 wins is very likely this year and that has nothing to do with what we did in the draft.

    And I don't think theres any doubt that Rodgers is declining. He still shows flashes, but he can't consistently do what he used to. The frustrating part is he refuses to play within the system and just take whats there. When you look at Brady and Manning, both just took what was there and didn't force stuff and that's a huge part of why they were both successful and productive late into their careers. Rodgers just insists on trying to do too much and prove how good he is and it's backfiring on him.

    If Rodgers continues to decline, many will be ready to move on from him. His level of play simply isn't worth what they're paying him and it's not even close. So two more years of potential decline, and trust me every fan is going to be ready to move on and spend that money elsewhere.

    Last thing I'll say is this. For one, I don't think this came as a huge shock to Rodgers. He talked about the possibility of it before the draft and even made the statement about nobody being able to beat him out for a while. But if this pick does piss Rodgers off, that's good for us. A pissed off Aaron Rodgers is very dangerous.

  8. #8
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    I agree we are decline candidates. But I do take issue with us being a ways away from contending. San fran is a head above the rest of the nfc, but even then their qb play is only okay and teams that can stop the run can beat them.

    But no one else is consistently better than us. I'm not saying we are noticeably better than those teams, but at full strength, we are absolutely in that next tier. Now that next tier is decent sized. It's us, Seattle, New Orleans and probably Minn, Philly, Dallas and Tampa all have arguements. If foles plays well the bears aren't far behind and if a good version of Goff shows up, LA is right behind too.

    But it's not a huge gap. We may miss the playoffs this year, but we are not far behind anyone outside of maybe San Fran. And in the AFC, the chiefs are really good. Baltimore has yet to prove it in the playoffs and everyone else is definitely a tier behind. So there's really two teams that seem to be above the rest and we aren't far behind the next tier.

    And that's what frustrated me about the draft the most. I agree, taking love at 30 would have been stomachable, but we didn't fill other holes. Gute said we weren't 1 guy away. Many others have mentioned that too. I agree completely with that statement. There was not a rookie on the board who was very likely to step into an all pro role instantly.

    But maybe we didn't need an all pro. Maybe getting a faster or more dynamic wr who makes a few big plays backs the defense up just enough to allow Jones to make a few more plays or gives sternberger a bit more room to work with and he looks better. Maybe getting a DL who's even 10% better as a rookie than Lancaster was allows burks or summers or Bolton to stay clean longer and make a few extra plays. Or maybe grabbing an ILB who's more athletic allows us to play a little more variety of defense. One of our biggest flaws last year is we constantly played with only 1 ilb against athletic TEs because Goodson was really bad in coverage and Martinez wasn't much better. Maybe even grabbing a #2 ilb who can cover a little more allows us to even slightly improve the run D.

    And again, that's where I struggle. Sure we weren't going to get someone to come in and be nick bosa good. But maybe slight improvements at 2 or 3 key weaknesses could be the difference. And there's still time in the offseason to potentially remedy that. But I struggle with up to the draft, we didn't do that. And if we don't, if feels like a huge miss on our part.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfishguy85 View Post
    Honestly, this draft could end up looking brilliant 4 years from now. And we won't know any earlier than that. The only thing I don't like about the Love pick is trading up to get him. But if they got the pick right and he ends up being the guy, then that will be a very small price to pay. I don't like our 2nd or 3rd round picks at all. Both seem like reaches. The rest of the draft I'm fine with.

    Also, I think people are too hung up on last year's record and making it to the NFCC game. We were lucky to be there. Our supposedly much improved defense still finished, what, like 20th overall? Our defense still isn't good. Bottom line is this team still has quite a ways to go before it's legitimately a contender. I hope it's not that bad, but we could almost be like the Bears last year- wildly overachieved the year before and then came back to reality. I think 9-10 wins is very likely this year and that has nothing to do with what we did in the draft.

    And I don't think theres any doubt that Rodgers is declining. He still shows flashes, but he can't consistently do what he used to. The frustrating part is he refuses to play within the system and just take whats there. When you look at Brady and Manning, both just took what was there and didn't force stuff and that's a huge part of why they were both successful and productive late into their careers. Rodgers just insists on trying to do too much and prove how good he is and it's backfiring on him.

    If Rodgers continues to decline, many will be ready to move on from him. His level of play simply isn't worth what they're paying him and it's not even close. So two more years of potential decline, and trust me every fan is going to be ready to move on and spend that money elsewhere.

    Last thing I'll say is this. For one, I don't think this came as a huge shock to Rodgers. He talked about the possibility of it before the draft and even made the statement about nobody being able to beat him out for a while. But if this pick does piss Rodgers off, that's good for us. A pissed off Aaron Rodgers is very dangerous.
    What I can't stand is people calling this similar to Packers drafting AR in 2005. Favre was skipping training camp. AR says legacy is important and he wants to retire a Packer. Also he wants to play into 40s. Also GB was in the NFC title game last year. AR fell into Packers lap at 24. GB trades a R4 pick and 30 to move up 4 spots in a deep draft. Also, that's a thing to Packers could have probably traded 30 if Love was there for a haul. Instead they trade up to take him. Again, if he turns out great OK it's a win but he is sitting 3 years potentially and doesn't do anything to help a team 1 win from a SB now. Which goes to crewfan saying they didn't fill holes or take BPA...because no way on any board was Dillon at 62 or Deguara at 94 the bpa. Reaches from moving R4 pick to move up. If Dillon R3/Degaura 4 and hybrid LB at 62 Chinn or Gay it's stomachable.

    Also bigfish I don't get how you can say you don't mind the draft when you have issues with trading up in R1 to take love and you don't like the R2/3 picks.....kind of where your draft is made.. That's another thing GB took high floor low ceiling guys after Love which makes it unexciting...I wish GB stuck at 30 took Love or my preference Blacklock. I thought when trade up they were taking Queen. But if they go Blacklock/Baun or Blacklock and hybrid Chinn or Gay Jr. the defense suddenly has a run stopper who can rush and a ILB...two needs defensively...Just an underwhelming draft haul.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    What I can't stand is people calling this similar to Packers drafting AR in 2005. Favre was skipping training camp. AR says legacy is important and he wants to retire a Packer. Also he wants to play into 40s. Also GB was in the NFC title game last year. AR fell into Packers lap at 24. GB trades a R4 pick and 30 to move up 4 spots in a deep draft. Also, that's a thing to Packers could have probably traded 30 if Love was there for a haul. Instead they trade up to take him. Again, if he turns out great OK it's a win but he is sitting 3 years potentially and doesn't do anything to help a team 1 win from a SB now. Which goes to crewfan saying they didn't fill holes or take BPA...because no way on any board was Dillon at 62 or Deguara at 94 the bpa. Reaches from moving R4 pick to move up. If Dillon R3/Degaura 4 and hybrid LB at 62 Chinn or Gay it's stomachable.

    Also bigfish I don't get how you can say you don't mind the draft when you have issues with trading up in R1 to take love and you don't like the R2/3 picks.....kind of where your draft is made.. That's another thing GB took high floor low ceiling guys after Love which makes it unexciting...I wish GB stuck at 30 took Love or my preference Blacklock. I thought when trade up they were taking Queen. But if they go Blacklock/Baun or Blacklock and hybrid Chinn or Gay Jr. the defense suddenly has a run stopper who can rush and a ILB...two needs defensively...Just an underwhelming draft haul.
    I think the Runyan pick was a solid choice because he has a chance to be either a RT or the potential RG to take over for Turner. I think this is one of the picks that the experts look at and they love. The Hanson pick has a chance but, his big knock was for his issues with snapping (from what I have read) which for a center is kind of troubling. the Stepaniak was kind of dumb because I don't know if he is any better than any of the guys already on the roster. I have read he is super raw/project player. and the Garvin pick could be a great pick. he came out as a junior and some believe that if he would have went back to school and actually gave more of an effort he could have went a lot higher after his senior season.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    What I can't stand is people calling this similar to Packers drafting AR in 2005. Favre was skipping training camp. AR says legacy is important and he wants to retire a Packer. Also he wants to play into 40s. Also GB was in the NFC title game last year. AR fell into Packers lap at 24. GB trades a R4 pick and 30 to move up 4 spots in a deep draft. Also, that's a thing to Packers could have probably traded 30 if Love was there for a haul. Instead they trade up to take him. Again, if he turns out great OK it's a win but he is sitting 3 years potentially and doesn't do anything to help a team 1 win from a SB now. Which goes to crewfan saying they didn't fill holes or take BPA...because no way on any board was Dillon at 62 or Deguara at 94 the bpa. Reaches from moving R4 pick to move up. If Dillon R3/Degaura 4 and hybrid LB at 62 Chinn or Gay it's stomachable.

    Also bigfish I don't get how you can say you don't mind the draft when you have issues with trading up in R1 to take love and you don't like the R2/3 picks.....kind of where your draft is made.. That's another thing GB took high floor low ceiling guys after Love which makes it unexciting...I wish GB stuck at 30 took Love or my preference Blacklock. I thought when trade up they were taking Queen. But if they go Blacklock/Baun or Blacklock and hybrid Chinn or Gay Jr. the defense suddenly has a run stopper who can rush and a ILB...two needs defensively...Just an underwhelming draft haul.

    Listen dude, I canít talk to you if you canít even read my post. Youíre alleging things and making connections that I never said. Maybe try reading it again, and stay consistent with what I actually said. Or donít, but I canít respond to nonsense.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfishguy85 View Post
    Listen dude, I canít talk to you if you canít even read my post. Youíre alleging things and making connections that I never said. Maybe try reading it again, and stay consistent with what I actually said. Or donít, but I canít respond to nonsense.
    Only my second graph was directed to you. YOu said the draft could turn out to look brilliant in 4 years....Maybe the Love pick...but you think Dillon and Deguara are going to be studs? You said you didn't like those picks yet didn't mind the draft and could look brilliant. The first 3 picks you don't like 2 of them...after R3 maybe what gets you even feeling fine? Your drafts are made in the 2-5 rounds. The Love pick is all that can save this draft unless Dillon becomes Derrick Henry...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    Only my second graph was directed to you. YOu said the draft could turn out to look brilliant in 4 years....Maybe the Love pick...but you think Dillon and Deguara are going to be studs? You said you didn't like those picks yet didn't mind the draft and could look brilliant. The first 3 picks you don't like 2 of them...after R3 maybe what gets you even feeling fine? Your drafts are made in the 2-5 rounds. The Love pick is all that can save this draft unless Dillon becomes Derrick Henry...
    Jesus, dude. Youíre slow, arenít you?

    Iíll make this simple. I specifically said that I donít like the 2nd and 3rd pick. Read my post again, itís there. That said, depending on LaFleurís scheme and playing the style he wants, maybe those picks end up fitting better than expected. They look like reaches to me.

    I like the OL picks, they seem like solid prospects and they make sense. We def need new blood on the OL, so I donít know how anyone can argue with those.

    And the biggest thing anyone is questioning right now is the decision to draft a Qb in the 1st instead of wrís. Itís pretty clear that this draft is meant in positioning this team for the future. Rodgers is on the decline, he wonít see the end of his contract in GB and the FO knows it. If they hit on the the Qb pick and heís ready to start and play well in 3 years, and a couple of these OL guys turn into anything, and we get some solid play out of the RB, then this draft will be viewed much differently. Youíre slow, so Iíll try and put this at a speed you can keep up with. Youíre trying to judge this draft before these guys have played a single snap, all on the basis that they canít help this team right now. Thatís clearly not the point, and you need to alter your world view to a different expectation. This draft could also be a total disaster. It could be 2015 again and nothing pans out. But at least we didnít draft a safety in the 1st round to start at CB.

  14. #14
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    Because your first 2 days are where you make hay in the draft. R6 linemen? If one pans out it's a win.

    Regardless of playing style Dillon and Deguara were reaches. Clear ML wants to pound the rock like in TEN with Henry. But still reaches. Moving up to take love and getting rid of R4 pick probably made them reach a round for each. If you don't like two of the top picks how do you even feel down the middle about it.

    Love at least has a high ceiling....who else on the Packers do you see as being a guy that could be a stud in the league? It sure looks on paper like a disaster. Worst graded draft by multiple people. But if Love pans out then it's probably a success overall. Runyan could be something.

    How dare I differ in a world view as you? I know you're slow so let me slow it down for you...you go to the NFCC game and you draft nothing to help the team get over the top in one of the deepest drafts in a long time? OK. The FO can do no wrong? Try to settle down and just have a debate.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopackgo87 View Post
    Because your first 2 days are where you make hay in the draft. R6 linemen? If one pans out it's a win.

    Regardless of playing style Dillon and Deguara were reaches. Clear ML wants to pound the rock like in TEN with Henry. But still reaches. Moving up to take love and getting rid of R4 pick probably made them reach a round for each. If you don't like two of the top picks how do you even feel down the middle about it.

    Love at least has a high ceiling....who else on the Packers do you see as being a guy that could be a stud in the league? It sure looks on paper like a disaster. Worst graded draft by multiple people. But if Love pans out then it's probably a success overall. Runyan could be something.

    How dare I differ in a world view as you? I know you're slow so let me slow it down for you...you go to the NFCC game and you draft nothing to help the team get over the top in one of the deepest drafts in a long time? OK. The FO can do no wrong? Try to settle down and just have a debate.

    Ok, let me paint a picture for you because you still just don't seem to grasp a very key concept here.

    So the OP mentions that we go to 13-3 and the NFCCG with a 10-6 talent level. Going into the year or even watching during the season, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that really thought we were 1 game away from a superbowl in terms of talent. We weren't, so we got lucky that things went as well as they did.

    Right there, your expectation is baseless. Expecting that we're right at the door of getting to a title. We're not. We overachieved and are bigtime regression candidates.

    But let's suppose the front office really was as clueless as you are about this and did what you think they should've done. Maybe they draft a WR in 1 and 2. Let's just say they did that. And then it plays out like this.

    Neither of those receivers makes much of an impact in the first two years. They catch a few balls, sure, but it takes a lot to earn #12's trust. Also over the course of the next two years, Rodgers continues to decline. The defense fails to make any significant jump, finishing no better than 15th in total defense(compared to currently #20 I think). In 3 years you've got a 39 year old, highly overpaid shell of his former self QB. At that point, you have a mediocre defense, young wr's that you still don't really know what they are. Maybe instead of drafting a rb we just paid Jones and his injury issues come back to haunt us. You do all this, and you're still barely getting into the playoffs at best but you're up against the cap because of Rodgers deal and at this point he's no good. Do you keep overpaying the guy through his deal just because you have him? Or do you cut and gut? You went all in on getting a wr in the draft but it didn't make an immediate impact and Rodgers declined some more, and the defense was still average at best. You swore to yourself you were just 1 player away from a superbowl and now you're looking at blowing your whole team up and having to start over.


    Listen, I was disappointed myself about this not being a win now draft. Initially, I hated this draft. It's easy to hate right now. The only point I'm trying to make is what it ends up as 4 years from now will tell the story. Have to give it time to play out because any judgement about it right now is just senseless.

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