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  1. #181
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    It's not like I said signing Graham was a firable offense. It's still bad value. It's the worst value among any of what the top FA TEs got. Pace has made a lot of signings like that. Any GM can pay/overpay the market. I'm not gonna reward Pace with an above average grade for below average-average value player transactions

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    It's not like I said signing Graham was a firable offense. It's still bad value. It's the worst value among any of what the top FA TEs got. Pace has made a lot of signings like that. Any GM can pay/overpay the market. I'm not gonna reward Pace with an above average grade for below average-average value player transactions
    This is interesting to me. Are the bears in a better position to win at the TE position right now then they were 3/1/2020?

    Did they over pay for Graham, maybe. We'll wait to see how he plays to make that determination. If he does jacks*it, then bears overpaid. if he's top 5 TEs and helps the bears win, then solid.

    Either way, it doesn't matter if it doesn't effect the financial outlook of the rest of the team. Look at it this way, did the Chiefs get anything extra for Mahomes not playing on a huge contract? Was their SB win that much better because Mahomes only made $5m? When he signs a huge contract and if they win again, is it a worse victory because he's getting paid huge? Yes they could sign extra players, but you can only have 53 men on the team and can sped what $220m or whatever it is now. spend it. where they save here you spend there.
    Last edited by hester23fan4va; 05-12-2020 at 01:51 PM.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by hester23fan4va View Post
    This is interesting to me. Are the bears in a better position to win at the TE position right now then they were 3/1/2020?

    Did they over pay for Graham, maybe. We'll wait to see how he plays to make that determination. If he does jacks*it, then bears overpaid. if he's top 5 TEs and helps the bears win, then solid.

    Either way, it doesn't matter if it doesn't effect the financial outlook of the rest of the team. Look at it this way, did the Chiefs get anything extra for Mahomes not playing on a huge contract? Was their SB win that much better because Mahomes only made $5m? When he signs a huge contract and if they win again, is it a worse victory because he's getting paid huge? Yes they could sign extra players, but you can only have 53 men on the team and can sped what $220m or whatever it is now. spend it. where they save here you spend there.
    This is going in circles. I don't believe in only grading something in hindsight and I don't believe signing a mediocre talent just because he's a team need justifies grossly overpaying. We've been down that road with Dion Sims. We can only grade based on what we know about the signing in advance. I would've preferred basically any of the other tight ends on the market, and we could've theoretically had any of them just by offering the same AAV to any of them, other than Hooper, who also would've been preferable for 4-5 AAV more.

    Overall, I don't like how the position was addressed. If we were gonna go big, we should've just gone big. Heck, Tyler Eifert had basically the same amount of production last year and signed for half the price Jimmy Graham did.
    Last edited by La_bibbers; 05-12-2020 at 02:30 PM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    This is going in circles. I don't believe in only grading something in hindsight and I don't believe signing a mediocre talent just because he's a team need justifies grossly overpaying. We've been down that road with Dion Sims. We can only grade based on what we know about the signing in advance. I would've preferred basically any of the other tight ends on the market, and we could've theoretically had any of them just by offering the same AAV to any of them, other than Hooper, who also would've been preferable for 4-5 AAV more.

    Overall, I don't like how the position was addressed. If we were gonna go big, we should've just gone big. Heck, Tyler Eifert had basically the same amount of production last year and signed for half the price Jimmy Graham did.
    This is all fair. If Graham has a comeback player of the year type season, it doesn't change the fact that it was a poor value contract.

    But again, you assume that just by offering the same AAV to these other players, they would have signed here instead. And that is not a fair assumption to make. What if nobody wanted to bother trying to catch passes from Mitch or Foles? We had damn near the worst offense in football last year. What kind of player gets excited about that, except one that's going to get paid above market value at the end of his career?

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  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by giventofly View Post
    This is all fair. If Graham has a comeback player of the year type season, it doesn't change the fact that it was a poor value contract.

    But again, you assume that just by offering the same AAV to these other players, they would have signed here instead. And that is not a fair assumption to make. What if nobody wanted to bother trying to catch passes from Mitch or Foles? We had damn near the worst offense in football last year. What kind of player gets excited about that, except one that's going to get paid above market value at the end of his career?

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    Yep. It's the same reason I can't hate the Mitch pick all that much because at the time, he was the safest and best QB prospect in the draft.

    And sure, I am making that assumption. I don't know, I just don't imagine most players are thinking about their next contract in their ages 26-30 season. I'd think they'd be thinking about the contract they're about to sign. It's possible the Bears were stuck with Graham and that Graham was stuck with the Bears but then why does it need to be an 8 million dollar AAV price tag?

    Anyway, I feel like I'm being a jerk at this point clogging up the Cole Kmet draft thread with Jimmy Graham dialogue, and it's not even like the Jimmy Graham signing is what "killed" the entire off-season for me (again, I gave it a C people, calm down). It's just an example of a bigger pattern of Pace not generally getting the best value out of his player acquisitions.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    Yep. It's the same reason I can't hate the Mitch pick all that much because at the time, he was the safest and best QB prospect in the draft.

    And sure, I am making that assumption. I don't know, I just don't imagine most players are thinking about their next contract in their ages 26-30 season. I'd think they'd be thinking about the contract they're about to sign. It's possible the Bears were stuck with Graham and that Graham was stuck with the Bears but then why does it need to be an 8 million dollar AAV price tag?

    Anyway, I feel like I'm being a jerk at this point clogging up the Cole Kmet draft thread with Jimmy Graham dialogue, and it's not even like the Jimmy Graham signing is what "killed" the entire off-season for me (again, I gave it a C people, calm down). It's just an example of a bigger pattern of Pace not generally getting the best value out of his player acquisitions.
    It goes both ways. He's getting good value out of LOTS of players on this roster. Like....lots.

    Also, we're calm. The same way you're allowed to be critical of Pace, we're allowed to be critical of your opinion on Pace. All good. It doesn't make me love you any less. I'd probably still finger you at least.

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  7. #187
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    Also yes you're a real jerk

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  8. #188
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    I just know I think some people are Hung up on Cost and draft capital for both Greham and Kmet. The fact is our TE room was bad enough I bet some of us could be more productive. If the bears as an organization like these two and think that fixing the TE is that important to the offense to use that much capital Im willing to give it a shot b4 being too upset. If these two combine to be a pretty good combo at TE and the offense improves dramatically isnt that worth whatever u paid in draft capital and cap space? we don't need an elite offense so ant improvement as a unit would be huge for making us that much closer as contenders.

    The fact is we all agreed we needed to fix thr TE spot. hopefully though these two moves we see at minimum average production from our TEs


    ‎"If your going to be thinking anyway, you might as well think big"

    -Rem Koolhaas

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyben36 View Post
    I just know I think some people are Hung up on Cost and draft capital for both Greham and Kmet. The fact is our TE room was bad enough I bet some of us could be more productive. If the bears as an organization like these two and think that fixing the TE is that important to the offense to use that much capital Im willing to give it a shot b4 being too upset. If these two combine to be a pretty good combo at TE and the offense improves dramatically isnt that worth whatever u paid in draft capital and cap space? we don't need an elite offense so ant improvement as a unit would be huge for making us that much closer as contenders.

    The fact is we all agreed we needed to fix thr TE spot. hopefully though these two moves we see at minimum average production from our TEs
    that was my point 100%.

    1. The graham contract doesn't prevent the bears from signing anyone.
    2. The Kmet pick doesn't leave any glaring holes on the roster (cause maybe a few players could have started day 1, maybe) where Kmet will definitely see playing time.
    3. If bears win the superbowl getting significant help on offense, than who cares if the Bears paid Jimmy $20m and drafted Kmet #1 overall.

    Graham is basically 1 one year contract. if they signed him to a 4 year $40m contract, then yes, that's terrible, but bears are not stuck and the team is better because of it.

  10. #190
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    https://twitter.com/arthurarkush/sta...275485185?s=21


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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stunner View Post
    https://twitter.com/arthurarkush/sta...275485185?s=21


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    Thatís a good sign. I will day this about Kmet...

    Nagyís offense seems to require a good TE. Over time, I have come to feel like Nagy wanted this guy, not just Pace. If Nagy believes he will work in his system, I will ride it out and see how it goes before I get bothered over the pick. Nagy wouldnít want a guy if he didnít fit the offense. He could be wrong (that happens a lot in drafts). But he clearly believes Kmet is worth investment.


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  12. #192
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    Strange Question in reguards to the Cole Kmet pick

    Would you rather

    A) Have Cole Kmet as your #2 TE and be able to run more two TE Sets effectivly. FWIW the Eagles #2 TE Godert ran 781 (770 the year b4 if anyone wants to make the rok vs sophmore argument) Snaps And the Cheifs 400 With Bell. So it gives you a range of Snap count potential depending on how the offense is run.

    B) Have Drafted a WR ( I Know myself and many others kinda wanted one) to replace Gabriel in 3 WR Sets. FWIW Gabriel played 830 snaps last year helthy so there is a chunk to replace.... however I also cant imagine a Rok plays much more than Miller did as a rok Which was 576 snaps. Plus I think you need to take into acount That Paterson is probably going to have a role... and Ginn obviously was brought in late... but he could fill some major chunk of that too.


    ................................


    IDK.... Maybe going the way I wanted originally and go with a Hamler or Mims would have made me feel a little better because I liked them more as prospects. But I also cant deny the Bears post Burton Cut really needed to be able to feild TEs more in this offense too. Just comparing it to the Cheifs and Eagles..... Bears had 1121 TE snaps.... the Cheifs had 1431 TE snaps... and the Eagles had 1871. And Dont give me the offense ran more snaps argument. Bears had 1091 QB Snaps. Eagles had 1184 and Cheifs 1062. The Ratios for the Bears vs these two comparable offenses suck. Bears 1.03 TEs per snap..... Eagles 1.58.... Cheifs 1.35. But even last year when Burton was OK we only averaged 1387/1077 = 1.29.... Which is still low even for the Cheifs.

    Honestly. I would not be surprised to see the Bears look a little bit more like the Eagles offense this year in terms of personel. Which honestly IM not sure im against.... especially if Foles ends up the Starting QB.


    ‎"If your going to be thinking anyway, you might as well think big"

    -Rem Koolhaas

  13. #193
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    If simplified to Kmet or a slot WR, Kmet.

    I feel good about our WRs. Would have liked some of the talent available at 43 or 50, but Kmetís probably the smarter choice there given those constraints.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    If simplified to Kmet or a slot WR, Kmet.

    I feel good about our WRs. Would have liked some of the talent available at 43 or 50, but Kmetís probably the smarter choice there given those constraints.
    There was only so much Pace could of done.

    I do agree with some that say there was more impactful players on the board at time, but the Bears needed aTE.

    Hopefully he'll be one of the few TE's that give production their first season.

  15. #195
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    Cole Kmet!

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    Click here to register!

    Hope to see some new posters around here soon.

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