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  1. #151
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    FWIW, they did go after Hooper, but apparently didn't want to pay him that much.

    Knowing what we know now though, I would have preferred overpaying him instead of paying Graham $8M + using one of our premium picks on a TE.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by giventofly View Post
    You are a tough man to please.

    Also, how do you know he didn't go after Hooper? Or Ebron or Jarwin? Part of the problem with these expectations is that the player has to want to be a Bear too.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    very very true, tough man to please. I agree with some of what Bibbers said for sure, but getting foles was huge. going in with only mitch was terrifying and I don't think there was other options out there that would fit as smoothly and successfully as foles. I don't think he's a long term answer, but not being able to draft a qb in round one hurts. so filler for a year or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    Not addressing the OL much makes it hard to get too excited about this offseason. Pace has name dropped Juan Castillo a few times in his pressers like he's some kind of miracle worker, so I guess I'm not too surprised, but still. Admittedly, the contracts of Leno, Whitehair, and Massie basically locked us in to another season of them anyway, but when your biggest addition is Germain Ifedi for peanuts, that's problematic. It's compounded by just watching several really good OL prospects fly off the board during the draft too. Plenty were there for the taking at 43 or in trade down scenarios.
    not getting an oline was strange. I know they grabbed some FAs and are looking to potentially grab more, but nada? just seems weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    FWIW, they did go after Hooper, but apparently didn't want to pay him that much.

    Knowing what we know now though, I would have preferred overpaying him instead of paying Graham $8M + using one of our premium picks on a TE.
    I don't know about hooper, I don't think he's going to have that great of a season without the supporting cast he had in ATL.

    Scheme is a huge thing that people seem to overlook. Player X was dominate in this offense doesn't mean player X will be equally as dominate in another offense. especially without key play makers at other positions.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    Not addressing the OL much makes it hard to get too excited about this offseason. Pace has name dropped Juan Castillo a few times in his pressers like he's some kind of miracle worker, so I guess I'm not too surprised, but still. Admittedly, the contracts of Leno, Whitehair, and Massie basically locked us in to another season of them anyway, but when your biggest addition is Germain Ifedi for peanuts, that's problematic. It's compounded by just watching several really good OL prospects fly off the board during the draft too. Plenty were there for the taking at 43 or in trade down scenarios.
    IDK if i agree with the idea that there were PLENTY to be had at 43 or in trade down. I beleive most of us were in agreement that Ruiz was probably the only OG Worth taking early. Hunt even went earlier. If your refering to Jones.... Im unsure if he even ends up cracking the starting lineup as a rok.

    But I am 100% in agreement the lack of adressing the OL is astonishing when it is such a huge concern for us in terms of both the run and the pass game. Like i mention though if he signs a guy like Warford I think most of us would be willing to turn around and say he kinda made up for it. But as of the way things sit right now..... do i have any faith that Juan Castillo is magically going to turn this OL from bellow average to above.... absolutly not.


    ‎"If your going to be thinking anyway, you might as well think big"

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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    FWIW, they did go after Hooper, but apparently didn't want to pay him that much.

    Knowing what we know now though, I would have preferred overpaying him instead of paying Graham $8M + using one of our premium picks on a TE.
    Yep. If you're gonna go big, go big. We ended up with plenty of cap space and we're trying to win now.

    I liked Pace's aggressive approach, I just think he put his chips in the wrong baskets, or at the very least, put too many chips in certain baskets. If we had Hooper+Chinn/Mims/Jones+5th round TE instead of Graham+Kmet I'd be a lot happier right now.

    Idk I just think anyone can pay/overpay the market to fill in holes, but what's really worth championing is in the value signings, or at least in signings where you're adding genuine impact (a la Hooper). Pace didn't really do any of that this off-season.
    Last edited by La_bibbers; 05-09-2020 at 07:28 PM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by giventofly View Post
    You are a tough man to please.

    Also, how do you know he didn't go after Hooper? Or Ebron or Jarwin? Part of the problem with these expectations is that the player has to want to be a Bear too.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    When I say "go after" I mean be the highest bidder on one of them and/or sign them.

    I could kind of see that with Jarwin since he re-signed with the Cowboys, but I assume for the most part these guys are taking highest bidder. I don't think Hooper wanted to sign with Cleveland and not Chicago. Reports were also that the Bears were in on him and didn't want to pay him, as DG has mentioned. I think it's dumb to want to pay Graham 8 million but not Hooper 12.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    FWIW, they did go after Hooper, but apparently didn't want to pay him that much.

    Knowing what we know now though, I would have preferred overpaying him instead of paying Graham $8M + using one of our premium picks on a TE.
    It takes 2 to tengo. Im obviously not sure what the Bears were willing to offer Hooper. But Maybe Hooper didnt want to come here? And When its hooper or bust basically at TE and you have likely multiple teams fighting for his services only one can come out on top. that was Cleveland.

    But post that The options were Shady at best. Greham..... Olsen who has been injured multiple times recently... Ebron off Ankle Surgury and still not 100%... Witten who is consistant but fathet time. Stuck With Burton ?

    Like i have stated though. could have traded for somebody. Hurst went for a 2nd though. the other guys were never let go of but I still personally question if they really would go for less than Hurst.

    I may have done things diferently. but at least now we do have (hopefully) Two TE and we are capable of running Two TE sets.


    ‎"If your going to be thinking anyway, you might as well think big"

    -Rem Koolhaas

  7. #157
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    Even if the Bears were just stuck with Graham because the rest of the class sucked, why did they have to pay him 8 million? Sorry, I just don't see what the justification is when Ebron signed for 6. If they paid him 4, I would be saying it was a decent little value signing.

    Y'all like to tell me I'm hard to please, but I think in this case, people are giving too much leeway here. I'm glad Mitch isn't gonna be the starter this year, and I think Foles is a good fit and should do better, but there's a pretty low ceiling for Foles and a lot of bad tape on his resume as well. We gave up a 4th round pick to get him and took on his cap for 2 years in the same market where Andy Dalton had to sign as a backup for 3 million and Cam Newton still hasn't even signed with a team. Of those 3 guys, Foles is my favorite fit for sure, but not for the amount of money and the draft pick we ended up having to give up. At least if one of those guys bombed, we could've moved on easily.

    I think ultimately, my problems with Kmet are a pretty good analogy for Pace's off-season as a whole, and possibly his entire tenure here. I don't hate Kmet, I don't hate all the players Pace has added to the roster this off-season, I just don't love the value for said player(s). I think a C is pretty fair. I mean, I wasn't some incredible student, I'd take a C.
    Last edited by La_bibbers; 05-09-2020 at 07:41 PM.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyben36 View Post
    IDK if i agree with the idea that there were PLENTY to be had at 43 or in trade down. I beleive most of us were in agreement that Ruiz was probably the only OG Worth taking early. Hunt even went earlier. If your refering to Jones.... Im unsure if he even ends up cracking the starting lineup as a rok.

    But I am 100% in agreement the lack of adressing the OL is astonishing when it is such a huge concern for us in terms of both the run and the pass game. Like i mention though if he signs a guy like Warford I think most of us would be willing to turn around and say he kinda made up for it. But as of the way things sit right now..... do i have any faith that Juan Castillo is magically going to turn this OL from bellow average to above.... absolutly not.
    Probably more in a trade down, so yeah, maybe not directly at 43. There were a ton of OL I really liked mid/late day 2 that went after 43.

    Jones, Charles, Cleveland, Niang, Peart. Even though I wasn't crazy about this IOL class, guys like Cushenberry, Jackson, and Hennessy ended up being pretty decent values where they landed.

    The Castillo praise is a bit puzzling IMO. He's been fired twice, but the way Pace has talked about him leads you to believe he's some incredible OL coach. He's probably a better fit for this scheme than Hiestand was, but I doubt his presence alone fixes everything.
    Last edited by DamnGoat; 05-09-2020 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    Even if the Bears were just stuck with Graham because the rest of the class sucked, why did they have to pay him 8 million? Sorry, I just don't see what the justification is when Ebron signed for 6. If they paid him 4, I would be saying it was a decent little value signing.

    Y'all like to tell me I'm hard to please, but I think in this case, people are giving too much leeway here. I'm glad Mitch isn't gonna be the starter this year, and I think Foles is a good fit and should do better, but there's a pretty low ceiling for Foles and a lot of bad tape on his resume as well. We gave up a 4th round pick to get him and took on his cap for 2 years in the same market where Andy Dalton had to sign as a backup for 3 million and Cam Newton still hasn't even signed with a team. Of those 3 guys, Foles is my favorite fit for sure, but not for the amount of money and the draft pick we ended up having to give up. At least if one of those guys bombed, we could've moved on easily.

    I think ultimately, my problems with Kmet are a pretty good analogy for Pace's off-season as a whole, and possibly his entire tenure here. I don't hate Kmet, I don't hate all the players Pace has added to the roster this off-season, I just don't love the value for said player(s). I think a C is pretty fair. I mean, I wasn't some incredible student, I'd take a C.
    Ebron signed for 6 and is not healthy from his ankle surgury yet. We need somebody who can for sure play. Another option was Greg Olsen. Who signed for 7 mil? you act like we over paid yet these two alone are within two mil of what Jimmy G got. The question was really who you prefered and if u were willing to pay up to go get them. we liked jimmy and did. Was it an overpay. Sure. But what if you sign Ebron and he cant go during Training camp or pre season. what if you sign Olsen and he ends up hurt like he has been the previous 2 seasons.

    I mean i seem to remember people giving me **** for wanting to drop Burton to save 1 mil and now we are crying over the 2 mil difference between Jimmy G and Ebron?

    I know your one of the biggest Mitch Haters on this Board..... what if all the TEs looked at Mitch and said I don't want to play if he is the QB. What if the only way they would come is if you overpaid them. You gotta remember FA happened well b4 we traded for Foles if my memory serves me right. (we were in on Teddy) What if Hooper said I will only go to chicago for 14+ mil a year. And as far as Ebron. it was clear his demands were too high because he sat in FA for a while. and the bears.... not wanting to wait on an injured guy to lower his price. took another route?

    as far as the QB.... I cant beleive that you... a guy who hates Mitch the most. would complain about a 4th round pick for a QB. And as far as the $ goes. he is due 2 years and a little over 13 mil. Is that really that bad? You act like we gave up a 1st and all our cap space. Foles deal in all honesty waw great considering his market 1 year ago. Jax ate a ton of his deal in that move. And if you would have prefered to sit and wait to see who was left at QB for a value ... Maybe that would have been smarter. But Cam was not released b4 we made our move. Neither was Dalton. Hindsignt is always 20..20... But there was not telling if these guys were really going to be free at the time of the trade.

    And in sure the bears talked to every team about what it would cost.... and decided the best route was Foles. You could have waited and signed Cam.... a guy we dont know if he is really healthy and no team is touching. or Dalton post draft and left the whole team wondering what the QB position would have looked like and made it a much bigger draft need to (I would not be surprised if we went Hurts if we waited and dalton was not released by day 2)

    But like i said. Hindsight is 50/50. At the time nobody knew if Ebron would sign for less. Nobody knew if these FA QB would become available. You have the exact right answer because your here and now. At the time. nobody cared that we gave up a 4th for foles... and probably would not have if we did the same for Cam or Dalton. Things change.


    ‎"If your going to be thinking anyway, you might as well think big"

    -Rem Koolhaas

  10. #160
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    I think the Graham signing was a fail, plain and simple.

    It has nothing to do with the cost, even though it was ridiculous. It has to do with the fact that I believe he's completely washed up and done.

    I think it's a worse signing than Glennon. Glennon was the top FA QB and the Bears didn't have a QB.

    If I recall correctly, the Bears had something like 237 TE's already on the roster before Graham.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by I don't care. View Post
    I think the Graham signing was a fail, plain and simple.

    It has nothing to do with the cost, even though it was ridiculous. It has to do with the fact that I believe he's completely washed up and done.

    I think it's a worse signing than Glennon. Glennon was the top FA QB and the Bears didn't have a QB.

    If I recall correctly, the Bears had something like 237 TE's already on the roster before Graham.
    If you watched Graham at all in Green Bay and the last year or so in Seattle, he's toast. Looks slower, athleticism is just about gone, and his only real value is being a big target that's capable of winning a jump ball. That sure as hell ain't worth $9M guaranteed. We're likely looking for another TE to fill that position, again, next offseason.

  12. #162
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    Didn’t Graham rank near the top of NFL TEs in separation last year?? And maybe his production was down because Rodgers almost never utilizes his TEs much.

    I am not saying Graham is awesome by any means. I would say he fits a specific role - a mismatch for a slot CB or an OK coverage LB. I think he is a serviceable starter as a receiver, not as a blocker. He was overpaid to fill that role, but that’s what usually happens in FA.


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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach100 View Post
    Didn’t Graham rank near the top of NFL TEs in separation last year?? And maybe his production was down because Rodgers almost never utilizes his TEs much.

    I am not saying Graham is awesome by any means. I would say he fits a specific role - a mismatch for a slot CB or an OK coverage LB. I think he is a serviceable starter as a receiver, not as a blocker. He was overpaid to fill that role, but that’s what usually happens in FA.


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    If you’re going to defend the Graham contract then we really can’t be critical of any move.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    If you watched Graham at all in Green Bay and the last year or so in Seattle, he's toast. Looks slower, athleticism is just about gone, and his only real value is being a big target that's capable of winning a jump ball. That sure as hell ain't worth $9M guaranteed. We're likely looking for another TE to fill that position, again, next offseason.
    Yea.... I think the same could be said of Witten but he just keeps going out and producing. I really think people will end up surprised by Jimmy G. I dont expect a monster year from him.... But a year like Trey Burton had last year would be a huge upgrade for this team. And I really dont think its that off to expect that. I think people need to realize that Rodgers just doesnt use TEs..... That Jimmy G played a rediculously low % of snaps last year for Green bay. And for all the talk of he is washed???? Comparing him to say Greg Olsen last year who you could have easily said the same thing of.

    Olsen (34yo) played 790 Snaps in 14 games (56 per)
    had 82 Targets 52 Receptions for 597

    Greham (33) Played 622 in 16 games (38 per)
    had 60 targets 38 reception for 447

    IF you pro rate Jimmy G to the same Snaps per game And Olsen to a full season it looks like

    Olsen Yeids 93 targets 59 receptions and 680 yards
    Greham Yeilds 88 targets 55 receptions and 657 yards

    I really dont see why you could not see a similar year for Greham as Olsen had last year. You can say he is washed up But do you really want to debate that Greham is less athletic than Olsen? I feel like that debate your grasping at straws.


    ‎"If your going to be thinking anyway, you might as well think big"

    -Rem Koolhaas

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    If you’re going to defend the Graham contract then we really can’t be critical of any move.
    I didn’t defend his signing. Pointing out possible misinformation about Graham is different than defending the signing. You don’t pay a league average player (at best) top 10 $$ for his position and it be a “good” signing.

    I just don’t like seeing statements like “he is washed” when I am pretty sure I remember hearing that he was creating more separation than almost any TE in the league last year. If true, would be evidence that contradicts the “he is washed” claim. I could be misremembering that, too...


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