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  1. #166
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    May 2008
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    The graham contract sucks, but isn’t only guaranteed this year and partially guaranteed next? It’s not a back breaker by any means. He was terrible in the 2 most important games of the season either so he still has something left at least. As for the “we are gonna be looking for another TE to fill that position next year” comment. We literally filled it with the Kmet pick that is being gated on. So we overpaid a rental and already added his replacement. Kinda helps the Kmet pick argument

  2. #167
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    Apr 2004
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    He was tops in the league at 3.9 yards, Jonnu Smith and Tyler Higbee were tied for 2nd at 3.7.

    That's honestly very surprising after watching him last season. He certainly looked like he'd lost a step and plenty of athleticism.

  3. #168
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    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamnGoat View Post
    He was tops in the league at 3.9 yards, Jonnu Smith and Tyler Higbee were tied for 2nd at 3.7.

    That's honestly very surprising after watching him last season. He certainly looked like he'd lost a step and plenty of athleticism.
    I certainly don’t think he is physically what he use to be. I just think that lined-up off the LOS his size and strength over a slot corner creates some mismatch opportunities and he is still showing an ability to get open - whatever the reason for that is. I also don’t think that he is worth top 10 TE $$.


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  4. #169
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    Aug 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach100 View Post
    I didn’t defend his signing. Pointing out possible misinformation about Graham is different than defending the signing. You don’t pay a league average player (at best) top 10 $$ for his position and it be a “good” signing.

    I just don’t like seeing statements like “he is washed” when I am pretty sure I remember hearing that he was creating more separation than almost any TE in the league last year. If true, would be evidence that contradicts the “he is washed” claim. I could be misremembering that, too...


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    Not sure if creating separation is the defending the washed up comment or not. There could be several factors in that stat. It's an average for one thing. Having very little production could skew if he went up against one terrible defender in one game.

    I think by looking at all of the statistics, it would paint a better picture. With that said, he wasn't there worst TE in the league. I don't believe he should have gotten the 6th highest TE pay either.

    I guess it's just an opinion...compared to his past, I think he's washed up now.

  5. #170
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    Nov 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by I don't care. View Post
    Not sure if creating separation is the defending the washed up comment or not. There could be several factors in that stat. It's an average for one thing. Having very little production could skew if he went up against one terrible defender in one game.

    I think by looking at all of the statistics, it would paint a better picture. With that said, he wasn't there worst TE in the league. I don't believe he should have gotten the 6th highest TE pay either.

    I guess it's just an opinion...compared to his past, I think he's washed up now.
    I'd say, in general, all football players on every team are affected by singular performances. Both good and bad, but tend to even themselves out. There are simply too few games to compile a large database of numbers. Which is why stats are so important in baseball, and very difficult to apply practically in football.

    I also wonder if they are tracking separation on just his 50+ catches or on all his routes run within his 600+ snaps. Either way, i think 50+ catches is high powered enough amount of data (relatively speaking, for a receiving position) to avoid potential measuring errors. We're not talking about 15 catches on the season here. Still, providing standard deviations, such as baseball-reference, would be more than appropriate and helpful. Maybe some website has it? I dunno.

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  6. #171
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    Aug 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by giventofly View Post
    I'd say, in general, all football players on every team are affected by singular performances. Both good and bad, but tend to even themselves out. There are simply too few games to compile a large database of numbers. Which is why stats are so important in baseball, and very difficult to apply practically in football.

    I also wonder if they are tracking separation on just his 50+ catches or on all his routes run within his 600+ snaps. Either way, i think 50+ catches is high powered enough amount of data (relatively speaking, for a receiving position) to avoid potential measuring errors. We're not talking about 15 catches on the season here. Still, providing standard deviations, such as baseball-reference, would be more than appropriate and helpful. Maybe some website has it? I dunno.

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    Interesting.

    He had 38 receptions last season. His production has been dropping since 2016 when he had 65.

    His past three years of production just don't seem to add up to $8m a year.

    But that's my opinion.

  7. #172
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    Nov 2006
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    I think it’s clear Nagy has been pounding his fist for TEs since he got here. He had none last year and I’m sure he made it clear that pace needs to address the situation. Maybe graham was his preferred choice, maybe not. It’s a definite overpay, but long term not a back breaker by any means. Nagy clearly sees a use for him in this offense so we’ll see what happens. He’s about average, which high is a significant upgrade than what the bears had last year.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by KG2TB View Post
    I think it’s clear Nagy has been pounding his fist for TEs since he got here. He had none last year and I’m sure he made it clear that pace needs to address the situation. Maybe graham was his preferred choice, maybe not. It’s a definite overpay, but long term not a back breaker by any means. Nagy clearly sees a use for him in this offense so we’ll see what happens. He’s about average, which high is a significant upgrade than what the bears had last year.
    Yeah, it wasn't a back breaker of a contract. Time will tell if he has any left.

    Many expected Burton to play well last season and he busted. There was hope that Shaleen would put it all together. Neither happened.

    I kind of see a similar situation this season, but maybe not as high of expectations. A vet TE in Graham, a rookie TE with potential. We'll see.

  9. #174
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    May 2008
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    ive said it b4 and I will say it again. what if the only way to get a TE to come play with Mitch (who was our only QB at the time) was to overpay. People Being up paying up for Hopper but what if he didnt want to play with Mitch as the QB. These are speculation but also reality.

    what would the solution have been then if we knew Burton was not reliable Just not pay anyone and have the TE not get upgraded? Rely solely on a rok despite most rok TEa being garbage?

    I seem to remember people complaining mid offseason about our inability to run Two TE sets too.... and now we should be able to between Jimmy G and Kmet. And if we are lucky.... on of the others in Harris.... Braunecker..... Shaheen.... or one of the other 8 guys can step up and we can not only have a quality set of starters.... but some reasonable depth.

    I just think its a little funny people call Jimmy G a severe overpay when Olsen got 7... And their stats per snap are very similar. And i know alot wanted Ebron. But coming off ankle surgury I dont think it was an option. And if you wanted to argue that it should have been Witten.... OK... he was a value pick up. But say we hadnt gotten Jimmy Greham and the rest unfolded similarly (we didnt want ebron because of health.... Olsen was gone..... Hopper refused) Whats left. Witten or bust? that doesn't make me more confident in our TE position. Could go Jordan reed Delanie Walker or Vernon Davis. But not exactly confidence there.

    To me it basically came down to probably Jimmy G or Witten. and to me. Ill take the slight upside if Jimny G bouncing away from Rodgers than Witten and Grinding whats left odd his body.
    Last edited by Kyben36; 05-10-2020 at 05:25 PM.


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  10. #175
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    Nov 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by I don't care. View Post
    Interesting.

    He had 38 receptions last season. His production has been dropping since 2016 when he had 65.

    His past three years of production just don't seem to add up to $8m a year.

    But that's my opinion.
    Hmm...not sure where I got 50 from. And no, certainly not worth the money we paid him. But I'm still hopeful he can provide a little production in this offense. I understand why others aren't.

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  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by giventofly View Post
    Hmm...not sure where I got 50 from. And no, certainly not worth the money we paid him. But I'm still hopeful he can provide a little production in this offense. I understand why others aren't.

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    As someone who has been very critical to the signing, I feel I can respond to this. I wouldn't say I don't think he can't provide a little production, but again, my problem isn't necessarily with the player, but the value. Though I definitely don't love the player either.

  12. #177
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    Maybe graham is gonna have a blast from the past kinda season.

    His separation numbers from 2019 make it feel slightly possible.

    Seattle and Green Bay don't really use their tight ends much.
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  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    As someone who has been very critical to the signing, I feel I can respond to this. I wouldn't say I don't think he can't provide a little production, but again, my problem isn't necessarily with the player, but the value. Though I definitely don't love the player either.
    Not every position is going to showcase great value. We have Eric Saubert on some pretty sweet value...would you prefer we roll with him...even if we used the Graham money on another position?

    It was like the Ben Sheets argument in the Cubs forum several years ago. We can either continue prioritizing players that we get on great value alone, whether they're game changers or not, or we can swing for the fences and add a proven talent and accept the fact that we overpaid a player. Remember, the last 1 or 2 wins in a football season are the most expensive wins there are.

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  14. #179
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    Nov 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    Maybe graham is gonna have a blast from the past kinda season.

    His separation numbers from 2019 make it feel slightly possible.

    Seattle and Green Bay don't really use their tight ends much.
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    Hard to say how his athletic ability has aged iver the years. He was definitley under-utilized on his last 2 teams. The separation is a nice thought, but he's getting older. With age, certain aspects like speed and jumping may deteriorate (I dont think any of us know this about Graham for sure), but other aspects like blocking, route running, and hands/catching can hold up and even improve with experience.

    We may have overpaid, but show me a team with 0% of their players above market value. It happens. All the time. We were desperate for TE help.

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  15. #180
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    Aug 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by giventofly View Post
    Not every position is going to showcase great value. We have Eric Saubert on some pretty sweet value...would you prefer we roll with him...even if we used the Graham money on another position?

    It was like the Ben Sheets argument in the Cubs forum several years ago. We can either continue prioritizing players that we get on great value alone, whether they're game changers or not, or we can swing for the fences and add a proven talent and accept the fact that we overpaid a player. Remember, the last 1 or 2 wins in a football season are the most expensive wins there are.

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    Man, that's a really good point. A few folks talk about value as if its the end all be all, but here's the deal, the team gets a salary cap and can spend up to all of it. Why not spend it all? you don't get anything by saving money. did Bears overpay Graham? Yeah, sure for 1 season. Okay, are the bears currently in a cap crisis, drying to figure out who to cut and where to restructure so they can get at least 53 men on the roster? no. Value, what about the guys who got cut who have dead space? There's several million there.

    If the bears end up having a poor season is it going to, in anyway shape or form be tied to the fact that they over paid graham. if only they didn't sign graham and rolled with value they have in the chumps they started last season. Graham gives the bears a better chance to win compared to who was on the team last year. Graham is definitely the best TE on the roster. Is he better than other TEs, yes. Is he worse, of coarse, but he's better than what the bears had and it really doesn't effect what the team is doing right now or this year to have his $8 mil on the books

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