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Thread: The Last Dance

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    That was way before my time and i would be relying on someone else and the footage i saw not very impressed. To me the numbers will be vastly misleading from that time. I think thats more of a person who dominated their era not necessary the best to play in the league. It could however be the most exciting time in ball depending on ones age a great performance and get emotionally attached but thats a different topic. Wilt dominating the game is a bit different he had a size advantage and dominated so he is on my most dominant list the others no. Even that i question a bit it makes little sense even at his size but including me recite what was heard as it became common knowledge among the basketball world. But when you stop and think about its just not logical. Either the the other teams and players sucked real hard or the game was totally different no 3 point line etc. The game while the basics are the same continue to evolve as well as the players. the better the player get they change rules to take away advantages. On surface it seems like west was better than Curry but in my opinion not. While west and Curry both have a fundamentally sound shot Curry takes from a further distance in many cases well beyond the 3 point line. Thats not saying that west would not be able to do that if he grew up in this era it would then be something he practiced but he did not and the game evolved since the last time he played. Curry ball handle floaters playing against more athletic guys with different rules.
    It's a fair argument about the different eras...there are good counters to those (but I don't feel like arguing this point right now but I'm happy to in a different thread), but it is nevertheless a reasonable point. However, with Wilt I think he would put up those numbers in any era he played. The thing to keep in mind about Wilt is that he was in all likelihood, the most athletic player in this history of the game (and it's not close). I used to have a similar opinion as you do on this, which was that Wilt was basically feasting on smaller, less athletic guys and if he played in todays NBA, while he would still likely be a first ballot HOF player, he likely wouldn't put up those vide game-like numbers.

    However, after doing an extensive amount of research on the matter, I eventually came to the belief that I was wrong and he would probably do just the same now as he did then. Here's why: One, the players back then weren't really smaller. The PFs and Cs were about the same height as today's players (about an inch shorter, but back then they werent measured in shoes and I think around the 80s or 90s guys started getting measured in their basketball shoes (which adds about 1-2 inches), so the players might've actually have been a little taller.

    The second and most important reason as to why I came to believe Wilt would dominate any era was because of his freak athleticism. Wilt claimed that he had a vertical of 56 inches and that he could bench press over 600 lbs. Those things obviously sound absurd so I looked into it to see if there was any objective data on these things. The NBA didn't track speed and jumping ability back then, but in HS wilt was a track star so a lot of his feats are on record. I'm going off of memory here (so I could be wrong), but I believe he was documented as running a sub-11 second 100 meter dash, and he had a high jump of over 6 feet (according to some mathematicians you need a minimum 40-inch vertical to be able to complete that jump). Arnold Schwarzenegger is also on record saying Wilt was one of the strongest men he's ever worked out with and that he could've been a professional weight lifter. According to a bleacher report article, Wilt could bench over 500 lbs (shaq maxed out at 450).

    So although we don't know the max of Wilt's athleticism, we can probably be pretty confident that his max vertical was probably over 40 inches (since this was HS and he likely became more athletic, and that was also probably not his max, I think it's safe to assume that his vertical was at least a couple inches above 40). A sub 11 second 100 meter dash is also kind of insane, especially for the time and being in HS.

    Wilt measured at 7'2, but with basketball shoes he would be about 7'4 with a wingspan of 7'8 (at least; I think he said they measured him with his suit and that it really reached 8 ft, but wilt also seemed to exaggerate his abilities so who knows). So what we have is a 7'4 player who had at the very least comparable speed to LBJ, who likely jumped about as high as LBJ (these are conservative estimates), and who was stronger than Shaq. Wilt also had insane stamina, as he would play most of the game and if you watch any old games from when he was young, he's often the first guy up and down the court). That kind of player sounds like a made up video game character and I don't think there is any era that a player like that could be stopped from doing exactly what Wilt did. I didn't really buy a lot of this until I started seeing the records from high school track meets and stuff like that, but yeah I think a lot of it was actually real (though likely somewhat embellished by Wilt).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-03-2020 at 01:12 PM.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    That was way before my time and i would be relying on someone else and the footage i saw not very impressed. To me the numbers will be vastly misleading from that time. I think thats more of a person who dominated their era not necessary the best to play in the league. It could however be the most exciting time in ball depending on ones age a great performance and get emotionally attached but thats a different topic. Wilt dominating the game is a bit different he had a size advantage and dominated so he is on my most dominant list the others no. Even that i question a bit it makes little sense even at his size but including me recite what was heard as it became common knowledge among the basketball world. But when you stop and think about its just not logical. Either the the other teams and players sucked real hard or the game was totally different no 3 point line etc. The game while the basics are the same continue to evolve as well as the players. the better the player get they change rules to take away advantages. On surface it seems like west was better than Curry but in my opinion not. While west and Curry both have a fundamentally sound shot Curry takes from a further distance in many cases well beyond the 3 point line. Thats not saying that west would not be able to do that if he grew up in this era it would then be something he practiced but he did not and the game evolved since the last time he played. Curry ball handle floaters playing against more athletic guys with different rules.
    The 80s and 90s are not before your time?


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  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    The 80s and 90s are not before your time?


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    Lol yep, I think ldawg likely started watching basketball about 15 years ago lol
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-03-2020 at 01:20 PM.

  4. #259
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    I hope the convos here are more interesting than this **** documentary.

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I hope the convos here are more interesting than this **** documentary.
    You don't like? I think it's been pretty cool. Just wish they didn't focus on only one season

  6. #261
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    The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    You don't like? I think it's been pretty cool. Just wish they didn't focus on only one season
    I disagree . I though it was going to be all about that season. It isnít al all. I would perfer they did


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    Last edited by ewing; 05-04-2020 at 07:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    You don't like? I think it's been pretty cool. Just wish they didn't focus on only one season
    it's not 1 season tho.

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It's a fair argument about the different eras...there are good counters to those (but I don't feel like arguing this point right now but I'm happy to in a different thread), but it is nevertheless a reasonable point. However, with Wilt I think he would put up those numbers in any era he played. The thing to keep in mind about Wilt is that he was in all likelihood, the most athletic player in this history of the game (and it's not close). I used to have a similar opinion as you do on this, which was that Wilt was basically feasting on smaller, less athletic guys and if he played in todays NBA, while he would still likely be a first ballot HOF player, he likely wouldn't put up those vide game-like numbers.

    However, after doing an extensive amount of research on the matter, I eventually came to the belief that I was wrong and he would probably do just the same now as he did then. Here's why: One, the players back then weren't really smaller. The PFs and Cs were about the same height as today's players (about an inch shorter, but back then they werent measured in shoes and I think around the 80s or 90s guys started getting measured in their basketball shoes (which adds about 1-2 inches), so the players might've actually have been a little taller.

    The second and most important reason as to why I came to believe Wilt would dominate any era was because of his freak athleticism. Wilt claimed that he had a vertical of 56 inches and that he could bench press over 600 lbs. Those things obviously sound absurd so I looked into it to see if there was any objective data on these things. The NBA didn't track speed and jumping ability back then, but in HS wilt was a track star so a lot of his feats are on record. I'm going off of memory here (so I could be wrong), but I believe he was documented as running a sub-11 second 100 meter dash, and he had a high jump of over 6 feet (according to some mathematicians you need a minimum 40-inch vertical to be able to complete that jump). Arnold Schwarzenegger is also on record saying Wilt was one of the strongest men he's ever worked out with and that he could've been a professional weight lifter. According to a bleacher report article, Wilt could bench over 500 lbs (shaq maxed out at 450).

    So although we don't know the max of Wilt's athleticism, we can probably be pretty confident that his max vertical was probably over 40 inches (since this was HS and he likely became more athletic, and that was also probably not his max, I think it's safe to assume that his vertical was at least a couple inches above 40). A sub 11 second 100 meter dash is also kind of insane, especially for the time and being in HS.

    Wilt measured at 7'2, but with basketball shoes he would be about 7'4 with a wingspan of 7'8 (at least; I think he said they measured him with his suit and that it really reached 8 ft, but wilt also seemed to exaggerate his abilities so who knows). So what we have is a 7'4 player who had at the very least comparable speed to LBJ, who likely jumped about as high as LBJ (these are conservative estimates), and who was stronger than Shaq. Wilt also had insane stamina, as he would play most of the game and if you watch any old games from when he was young, he's often the first guy up and down the court). That kind of player sounds like a made up video game character and I don't think there is any era that a player like that could be stopped from doing exactly what Wilt did. I didn't really buy a lot of this until I started seeing the records from high school track meets and stuff like that, but yeah I think a lot of it was actually real (though likely somewhat embellished by Wilt).
    I agree its debatable thats why i dont rule him out like the rest. Like Mj i think a physically gifted guys in sports will do that in any era as long as they approach it with the same mindset. I would however question if they wouldn't dominate in the same fashion. I think the guards of today with how the game is called would take away those long dribbles. If they were just feeding him on every play until late in his career would not fly today. James Harden is the closest thing to taking a bunch of shots. I think it had and have players that could of dropped 100 but its not common to try to do so. When Kobe went for 81 he stopped. As for rebounds hey the guy was athletic and tall so it should have no reason for him not to repeat that today. The league is more guard driven but at his size all you have to do is throw the ball anywhere close to the rim and he will catch it. I do think him benching 600lbs was part of the show however he dont look like a guy that could lift 600lbs. So i question it but its not out the question given his size. For that i have him and Shaq as most dominant.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-03-2020 at 08:30 PM.

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    The 80s and 90s are not before your time?


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    not really it have a good amount of footage but before that its pretty limited and the game looked a lot different down to the way the players dribble shoot pass. Now i do think like today they were not as physical. I mean today you can see its the same sport but at the same time different.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    You don't like? I think it's been pretty cool. Just wish they didn't focus on only one season
    Are you paying attention? It starts from when Jordan was drafted. It goes back and forth from 98.

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by effen5 View Post
    Are you paying attention? It starts from when Jordan was drafted. It goes back and forth from 98.
    I realize that but it's centered on the last run which it always goes back to hence the name of the documentary.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    it's not 1 season tho.
    Well it jumps all over the place but essentially its about their last championship run. That's what it keeps going back to. That and the beef with Kraus. We haven't seen the whole thing but that's the impression Im getting.

    Anyways, just curious to know why you're not liking it?

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I hope the convos here are more interesting than this **** documentary.
    I just binged 6 episodes.

    I'm honestly not impressed. Maybe the casual fan is hyped and find it amazing but there's not really anything new here and I'm not sure what's the point?

    Bulls had some turmoil in the 97-98 season - that's it?
    The Baker has come. Believe the hype.


  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Rex View Post
    I just binged 6 episodes.

    I'm honestly not impressed. Maybe the casual fan is hyped and find it amazing but there's not really anything new here and I'm not sure what's the point?

    Bulls had some turmoil in the 97-98 season - that's it?
    Agreed it a nice history lesson but I was expecting a deep drive into this season. Really nothing new here


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Rex View Post
    I just binged 6 episodes.

    I'm honestly not impressed. Maybe the casual fan is hyped and find it amazing but there's not really anything new here and I'm not sure what's the point?

    Bulls had some turmoil in the 97-98 season - that's it?
    Donít forget that a lot of fans were young when that stuff was happening. They may remember Jordan Bulls but not vividly. Itís def not the deep dive I hoped for but but still a lot of behind the scenes comments and insight.

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