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  1. #4096
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    Jul 2011
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    6,670
    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    that's been my issue for years.....instead of spending so much energy trying to make sure everybody has insurance, first figure out why health care costs so damn much in the first place....it shouldn't, if hands weren't being greased
    Insurance, the answer is insurance. Every player in the healthcare system costs are raised significantly by insurance. Hospitals, doctors, patients, all taken advantage of by a middle man who's only purpose is to draw a profit off of the whole deal.

  2. #4097
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    Sep 2006
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    36,737
    Quote Originally Posted by benny01 View Post
    Insurance, the answer is insurance. Every player in the healthcare system costs are raised significantly by insurance. Hospitals, doctors, patients, all taken advantage of by a middle man who's only purpose is to draw a profit off of the whole deal.
    One of the big middle men is the US government. Medicare, while important, also allows providers to move the expenses they can't recoup from Medicare users to all the rest of the patients who have to pay for their own health care. We need one system for everyone and it needs to be transparent so the industry can't hide money and move money around while screwing the people on the edges with the smallest voices the most.

  3. #4098
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    Feb 2005
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    South Dakota
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    16,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    One of the big middle men is the US government. Medicare, while important, also allows providers to move the expenses they can't recoup from Medicare users to all the rest of the patients who have to pay for their own health care. We need one system for everyone and it needs to be transparent so the industry can't hide money and move money around while screwing the people on the edges with the smallest voices the most.
    the same is true with Veterans' health care and that's exactly what happens- the government sets limits on what they pay for each service and it's nearly always less than providers want, so there's this endless cycle of increasing what they charge others which in turn effects the data the government uses in determining their limits

    it's another version/aspect/whatever of the talk to make major changes to the minimum wage instead of looking at reasons the cost of living is as high as it is...and assuming inflation 'is what is is'
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  4. #4099
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    Sep 2009
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    Coventry RI
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    5,073
    As the long summer night's get shorter and shorter I can't help but think of all the people that are going to go nuts or kill themselves or whole family. Atleast we can go outside right now

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    One More Time

  5. #4100
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    born and raised on the south side of Chicago.
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    15,241
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I've been saying all along that all the accusations and assertions of "this is right, this is wrong" were premature for that very reason. It's going to take a LONG time to actually gather the real data to tell what was right or best long term and what was not.
    Yes. But public health officials must make policy and treatment decisions based off what we have. Science is not about making the decision that is right... it's about making the decision that is right given the data that you have. I think they are being cautious side... and we can see from our behavior (compared to other western countries percapita we are not doing so well). But we are kicking Belgium's ***.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...n-inhabitants/

    It's something we learned for the Spanish flu outbreak. The deaths per case, and the deaths per capita and the cases per capita were widely different even within our own country due to the behavioral interventions localities underwent. (St. Louis of all places was one of the best places to be during the Spanish flu epidemic.)
    Last edited by flips333; 08-31-2020 at 12:28 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
    man with hair like fire can destroy souls with a twitch of his thighs.

  6. #4101
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    Sep 2006
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    36,737
    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    the same is true with Veterans' health care and that's exactly what happens- the government sets limits on what they pay for each service and it's nearly always less than providers want, so there's this endless cycle of increasing what they charge others which in turn effects the data the government uses in determining their limits

    it's another version/aspect/whatever of the talk to make major changes to the minimum wage instead of looking at reasons the cost of living is as high as it is...and assuming inflation 'is what is is'
    I was helping my Dad pay his bills and saw several health care invoices where it was "Procedure A, $97000, Medicare allows $900" and his secondary private insurance would drop than $900 to $180. And toward the end when he was at Stanford Medical Center and had the best cancer board (I think it was 12 doctors) in the world meeting about his case a couple times a week and tons of procedures, the last 3 months of his life based on invoices pre-medicare was in excess of $3,000,000 and what the hospital got was less than $10000. That means the hospital bookkeepers are looking for a place to collect that "lost" $2.9M. The fact that they jack up the prices because they know they are going to lose on a certain percentage of them is certainly a factor too.

    Add in that I have a friend who exists on the edge of homelessness, whenever he needs medical care he goes to the nearest emergency room and checks in without ID and uses the name John Doe and no address. They accept him, treat him (almost certainly cutting some corners) and release him without ever expecting to be paid ... that expense too is spread to the rest of us.

    Then add that pharmaceutical companies sign deals with doctors and hospitals to push certain meds and at exorbitant rates which are then, again, passed on to the bills of people who pay ever increasing premiums for their health coverage.

    Then add the malpractice expenses hospitals and doctors and labs have to maintain and we've got another huge chunk of change being passed on to the little guy. I remember Obama campaigning on tort reform to fix the problem to a room full of doctors one day and I was hopeful, then the next day to a room full of lawyers he said the opposite. I often wonder how much better off we'd be if we didn't allow lawyers into government.

  7. #4102
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    Sep 2006
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    36,737
    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    Yes. But public health officials must make policy and treatment decisions based off what we have. Science is not about making the decision that is right... it's about making the decision that is right given the data that you have. I think they are being cautious side... and we can see from our behavior (compared to other western countries percapita we are not doing so well). But we are kicking Belgium's ***.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...n-inhabitants/

    It's something we learned for the Spanish flu outbreak. The deaths per case, and the deaths per capita and the cases per capita were widely different even within our own country due to the behavioral interventions localities underwent. (St. Louis of all places was one of the best places to be during the Spanish flu epidemic.)
    Sure. My point was that a lot of people take a little data and run with it as if it's the be all and end all and anybody who has a different idea, based on data or not, MUST be wrong.

    From the data I've been able to gather it makes sense to me to avoid contact and wear a mask because really it's not hurting me much at all. But to the people who have lost their businesses, their houses, and their health ... that's not as easy a decision and I don't think there is anything wrong with being understanding about that.

    At the very least we should be able to talk about it civilly.

  8. #4103
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    Jun 2008
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    born and raised on the south side of Chicago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Sure. My point was that a lot of people take a little data and run with it as if it's the be all and end all and anybody who has a different idea, based on data or not, MUST be wrong.

    From the data I've been able to gather it makes sense to me to avoid contact and wear a mask because really it's not hurting me much at all. But to the people who have lost their businesses, their houses, and their health ... that's not as easy a decision and I don't think there is anything wrong with being understanding about that.

    At the very least we should be able to talk about it civilly.
    We are at the point where I am pretty sure we can't talk civilly about the ****ing weather.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
    man with hair like fire can destroy souls with a twitch of his thighs.

  9. #4104
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    Feb 2005
    Location
    South Dakota
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    16,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    I was helping my Dad pay his bills and saw several health care invoices where it was "Procedure A, $97000, Medicare allows $900" and his secondary private insurance would drop than $900 to $180. And toward the end when he was at Stanford Medical Center and had the best cancer board (I think it was 12 doctors) in the world meeting about his case a couple times a week and tons of procedures, the last 3 months of his life based on invoices pre-medicare was in excess of $3,000,000 and what the hospital got was less than $10000. That means the hospital bookkeepers are looking for a place to collect that "lost" $2.9M. The fact that they jack up the prices because they know they are going to lose on a certain percentage of them is certainly a factor too.

    Add in that I have a friend who exists on the edge of homelessness, whenever he needs medical care he goes to the nearest emergency room and checks in without ID and uses the name John Doe and no address. They accept him, treat him (almost certainly cutting some corners) and release him without ever expecting to be paid ... that expense too is spread to the rest of us.

    Then add that pharmaceutical companies sign deals with doctors and hospitals to push certain meds and at exorbitant rates which are then, again, passed on to the bills of people who pay ever increasing premiums for their health coverage.

    Then add the malpractice expenses hospitals and doctors and labs have to maintain and we've got another huge chunk of change being passed on to the little guy. I remember Obama campaigning on tort reform to fix the problem to a room full of doctors one day and I was hopeful, then the next day to a room full of lawyers he said the opposite. I often wonder how much better off we'd be if we didn't allow lawyers into government.
    I know we have lawyers here, but hey generalization is too much a norm here so if you're a lawyer reading this, I don't necessarily mean you ....but yes, the majority of politicians are lawyers and we see where that has gotten us.......there was an old joke that scientists started using lawyers instead of monkeys in their experiments...because there was less public outcry.

    Just in my own personal experience regarding meds. I'm diabetic and was taking Trulicity, paying $25/mo for 4 weekly shots...one day the pharmacy hadn't adjusted my cost and it was listed full price and the clerk thought nothing of it when she said 'that will be $950'...umm, no, no it won't be. A few months ago I changed jobs and my new insurance company preferred a different shot (and oh joy, a daily not weekly one)...same cost, only I also get to pay for needles at another $15/mo...ok fine, but in changing medications I went thru weeks where I didn't understand why my vision was blurry...it was just the change in medication, only now clearing up.

    Anyway, multiply our 2 'little' stories millions of times and you get what we've got.....a mess.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  10. #4105
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    Modesto
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    2,889
    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Cool. I never used the term "vast majority".
    Yes, other than the first sentence of your post. Which is why I addressed vast majority, if you are going to break my balls then at least be accurate

    Go read the post you quoted in post 4017, the first sentence of your comment was
    "You seem to be ignoring the fact that the vast majority of people dying from COVID-19 are the elderly."


    "He's getting the best job in baseball."

    Bruce Bochy sent a clear message to whoever will be the Giants' next manager
    🙌
    https://bit.ly/2ndI9eG

  11. #4106
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    Sep 2006
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    36,737
    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    We are at the point where I am pretty sure we can't talk civilly about the ****ing weather.
    Yeah, even the weather forecast is political now.

  12. #4107
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    Sep 2006
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    36,737
    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I know we have lawyers here, but hey generalization is too much a norm here so if you're a lawyer reading this, I don't necessarily mean you ....but yes, the majority of politicians are lawyers and we see where that has gotten us.......there was an old joke that scientists started using lawyers instead of monkeys in their experiments...because there was less public outcry.

    Just in my own personal experience regarding meds. I'm diabetic and was taking Trulicity, paying $25/mo for 4 weekly shots...one day the pharmacy hadn't adjusted my cost and it was listed full price and the clerk thought nothing of it when she said 'that will be $950'...umm, no, no it won't be. A few months ago I changed jobs and my new insurance company preferred a different shot (and oh joy, a daily not weekly one)...same cost, only I also get to pay for needles at another $15/mo...ok fine, but in changing medications I went thru weeks where I didn't understand why my vision was blurry...it was just the change in medication, only now clearing up.

    Anyway, multiply our 2 'little' stories millions of times and you get what we've got.....a mess.
    I was at a party with a bunch of lawyers and asked them for some lawyer jokes, they said they had heard them all and none of them bothered them. I told them:

    A woman is trapped on a desert island with a rapist, a murderer, and a lawyer. She has a gun with 2 bullets what does she do? Shoot the lawyer twice to make sure he's dead of course.

    Apparently I offended them.

  13. #4108
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    57,770
    Quote Originally Posted by SfgiantsJD3 View Post
    Yes, other than the first sentence of your post. Which is why I addressed vast majority, if you are going to break my balls then at least be accurate

    Go read the post you quoted in post 4017, the first sentence of your comment was
    "You seem to be ignoring the fact that the vast majority of people dying from COVID-19 are the elderly."


    Well yeah, I used it in the appropriate context. Not the one you were referring to.

  14. #4109
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    Sep 2012
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    Modesto
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Well yeah, I used it in the appropriate context. Not the one you were referring to.
    The original context from the OP was that the majority of the elderly that are dying are Trump supporters
    There was link to voting by age and race in my post, it was the stats of over 65 white voters for Trump was 53% and about 43%-46% for those making less than 50k a year.

    So is 53% considered much more likely? Either way, neither the OP or you have done anything but assumptions

    The white elderly are dying at a significantly (-12.5% to -32%) lower rate than minorities as shown on pages 4,5 and 6 of my other reply reply.
    "He's getting the best job in baseball."

    Bruce Bochy sent a clear message to whoever will be the Giants' next manager
    🙌
    https://bit.ly/2ndI9eG

  15. #4110
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    Feb 2005
    Location
    South Dakota
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    16,478
    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    We are at the point where I am pretty sure we can't talk civilly about the ****ing weather.
    is that different from just regular weather?
    because, either way, unless I'm outdoors, it doesn't much matter about the weather
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

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