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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Lol. I think you're confusing FoC the Jew with FoC the Atheist. But I can see how that might happen.
    No it's just that what you're saying seems to go against some of the basic ideas of Judaism. At least as I know it

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    No it's just that what you're saying seems to go against some of the basic ideas of Judaism. At least as I know it

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    If you can tell me what your basic ideas of Judaism are, we can discuss.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post

    On a serious note, Jews are encouraged to always ask questions, to be skeptical. It is part of scholarship, highly valued in Jewish culture.
    As it is in my so-called atheist culture as well.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    As it is in my so-called atheist culture as well.
    Pipe down you heathen lol!!!

  5. #50
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    When Iím asking about what Jews believe, Im asking about what they historically believed. I think youíre telling what your ďdenominationĒ believes. Which sounds quite different. Unless of course I asked what you believe.

    There are many Jews who still believe in Messiah, Heaven and Hell today though. And not just JfJ, but other who donít believe Messiah has come yet and they are waiting on him.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    When Iím asking about what Jews believe, Im asking about what they historically believed. I think youíre telling what your ďdenominationĒ believes. Which sounds quite different. Unless of course I asked what you believe.

    There are many Jews who still believe in Messiah, Heaven and Hell today though. And not just JfJ, but other who donít believe Messiah has come yet and they are waiting on him.
    Maybe I confused you. All observant Jews believe in an eventual Messiah. But no one is really holding out hope that he will arrive in our lifetime. It's not an expected eventuality. It's just part of our narrative. Next year in Jerusalem....

    It was actually a very sore point among the Hassids when, in 1948, the United Nations declared Palestine was now Israel. This went against Biblical teaching that said Palestine would be returned to the Jews by Moshiach. The Hassids felt the UN was robbing Moshiach of his power.

    Nonetheless, we still wait, but with no less belief that he will arrive at some vague. Admittedly, most Jews look at it as something akin to waiting for the Great Pumpkin. At any rate, i wouldn't say waiting for the Messiah is the focal point of Judaism. That would be family and traditions.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 04-11-2020 at 07:53 PM.

  7. #52
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    20thK, one of the reasons it's so difficult for me to convey all this to you is because Judaism is more is more of a tribal-based religion while Christianity is belief based. Different Jews may hold different beliefs on the Messiah. I sure as heck am ill equipped to tell you what the Torah says. All i can do is speak for the culture which is hardly a monolith.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    20thK, one of the reasons it's so difficult for me to convey all this to you is because Judaism is more is more of a tribal-based religion while Christianity is belief based. Different Jews may hold different beliefs on the Messiah. I sure as heck am ill equipped to tell you what the Torah says. All i can do is speak for the culture which is hardly a monolith.
    It hasnít always been that way though right? Iím sure there have always been differences but the Sanhedrin pretty much ruled over all of Judaism back in the day right?

    Speaking of Sanhedrin... does that even exist anymore?

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    It hasnít always been that way though right? Iím sure there have always been differences but the Sanhedrin pretty much ruled over all of Judaism back in the day right?

    Speaking of Sanhedrin... does that even exist anymore?
    Wow. I had to look it up to even know what you were talking about. Apparently it's referenced in the Talmud, the book of Oral Laws. But it hasnt had any practical application for many centuries.

    To answer your question, things became fragmented when Jews attempted to assimilate to Americans life. It was too difficult to keep to all if their customs, traditions, and laws while adapting to American life. But they still wanted to hold on to their Jewish identity but as Americans. So the Conservative and the Reform movements were born.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Wow. I had to look it up to even know what you were talking about. Apparently it's referenced in the Talmud, the book of Oral Laws. But it hasnt had any practical application for many centuries.

    To answer your question, things became fragmented when Jews attempted to assimilate to Americans life. It was too difficult to keep to all if their customs, traditions, and laws while adapting to American life. But they still wanted to hold on to their Jewish identity but as Americans. So the Conservative and the Reform movements were born.
    That makes sense. Judaism was as much a government as it was a faith. Itís actually where we get a lot of our govt. If you go back and read about Moses, His father-in-law (Jethro) had to council him on how to set up the handling of disputes... essentially installing judges at different levels so that Moses wouldnít be overwhelmed.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    If you can tell me what your basic ideas of Judaism are, we can discuss.
    Well, I'm def ignorant so bear with me.

    But I see it as a religion with a clear idea of an afterlife, which seems to based on our actions in this life. These actions are shown to us by god through religion (judaism as written in the Torah, and any other major accepted religious doctrines I may not know of).

    So first of all, I'm 100% ignorant to the Torah, other than it's pretty brutally written, according to many atheists. I do think I've heard that it has some.pretty harsh descriptions of punishments from god (islam does too).

    I say this because in the islamic view there is descriptions of jews "interacting with god" in the sense that they would almost have a dialog with him through Moses. Or something to that effect. You seemed to have kinda said something similar yourself. So this makes me feel like there is definitely an idea of monotheism in judaism. Really at a very fundamental level.

    I also believed a lot of that dialogue was based around belief in god.

    And then the ten commandments are basically a set a of rules or guidelines to go by, so there is this clear concept of "right and wrong."

    And I am assuming there is a clear concept of an afterlife. An afterlife in which our experience is based upon our "right and wrong" actions of this life. I'm just assuming this.

    I would say this is how I kinda view judaism. It's based on Islamic view of it.









    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    If you can tell me what your basic ideas of Judaism are, we can discuss.
    **The islamic view on Judaism is that it is very close to our religion, and it is very close to pure authentic but to us its just not 100% authentic. We refer to Jews, Christians, and Sabians (a kinda general term used for different monotheistic religions at the time) as "people of the book". From a religious sense we speak of "people of the book" as being looked at very favorably by god.

    The quran speaks mostly in terms of believers and unbelievers. People of the book are def considered believers.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

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