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  1. #1
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    A True Christian?

    In the politics forum, a poster noted that a person with certain beliefs would not be “a true Christian.”

    Serious question here: what would make one a “true Christian?”

    Beliefs?
    Actions?

  2. #2
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    I'm sure 20k has an answer for this..
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I'm sure 20k has an answer for this..
    I imagine so, but I’m really curious as to what it is.

    What about baptism? Isn’t that sufficient?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I imagine so, but I’m really curious as to what it is.

    What about baptism? Isn’t that sufficient?
    No.

    PSD: where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  5. #5
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    Regarding what makes a true Christian, isn't any answer purely subjective?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  6. #6
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    I'm a non-observant Jew, an agnostic atheist, really, but for identity purposes, I will never deny that I am a Jew. I am very proud of my Jewish heritage even though I neither practice nor observe any of the traditions, customs, or beliefs. For example, I don't light Hanukkah candles. I eat what I want. I don't waste time going to Temple unless invited to help celebrate a friend or family member's "simcha"

    Still, I found myself channel surfing a few years ago on a Sunday morning and came upon the Jewish cable station and saw a Rabbi lecturing to the topic, "What makes a Jew?"

    This should be good for at least a few laughs, I thought. So I watched, expecting to get a few chuckles out of it. What I got was respect for this particular Rabbi and an entirely new way of looking at myself as a Jew.

    The Rabbi asked if only those who followed all 613 of the mitzvot (rules) as listed in the Bible (Old Testament) could truly be considered Jewish.

    What about those who didn't worry so much about most of the mitzvot but kept kosher, observed Shabbat, and went to Temple every Friday night and Saturday? Could they still be considered Jewish?

    What about those who did none of those but just went to Temple for the High Holidays -- Rosh Hoshana and Yom Kippur -- but still fasted on Yom Kippur and refrained from eating bread during the week of Passover? Could they still be considered Jewish?

    What about those who didn't even go to Temple on the High Holidays, didn't fast on Yom Kippur, and ate bread on Passover but believed in God. Could they still be considered Jewish?

    And what about those who didn't even believe in God? Could they still be considered Jewish?

    The Rabbi concluded, all of these people, assuming they were all born to a Jewish mother, were all Jewish. It's an interesting club. Once you're born into it, you can never get out of it. You can swear it off, leave the tribe, ignore all of its rules and rituals, but you're always welcome back whenever you want to come back.

    To be fair, there are many, many Jews who will vehemently disagree with this. Many observant Jews believe that if you disdain the strict rules as outlined in the 613 mitzvot, you are disdaining God and you are no longer one of the Chosen. But these Jews are in the minority to be fair. Most will agree that once Chosen, always Chosen.

    See, Jews try to curry God's favor not to secure privilege in some sort of fantastical afterlife but rather to show appreciation for being given the opportunity to live life in the here and now. It is the Jewish way of showing appreciation for the Covenant between God and the Jews. So we do things like snip off the end of the penises of the week-old males and follow strict dietary laws.

    I, of course, believe in none of this. But that does not matter. I am still a Jew. The Rabbi told me so.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 01-02-2020 at 09:08 AM.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  7. #7
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    I'm not sure what a "true Christian" is, but I imagine Ned Flanders fits that bill.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I'm a non-observant Jew, an agnostic atheist, really, but for identity purposes, I will never deny that I am a Jew. I am very proud of my Jewish heritage even though I neither practice nor observe any of the traditions, customs, or beliefs. For example, I don't light Hanukkah candles. I eat what I want. I don't waste time going to Temple unless invited to help celebrate a friend or family member's "simcha"

    Still, I found myself channel surfing a few years ago on a Sunday morning and came upon the Jewish cable station and saw a Rabbi lecturing to the topic, "What makes a Jew?"

    This should be good for at least a few laughs, I thought. So I watched, expecting to get a few chuckles out of it. What I got was respect for this particular Rabbi and an entirely new way of looking at myself as a Jew.

    The Rabbi asked if only those who followed all 613 of the mitzvot (rules) as listed in the Bible (Old Testament) could truly be considered Jewish.

    What about those who didn't worry so much about most of the mitzvot but kept kosher, observed Shabbat, and went to Temple every Friday night and Saturday? Could they still be considered Jewish?

    What about those who did none of those but just went to Temple for the High Holidays -- Rosh Hoshana and Yom Kippur -- but still fasted on Yom Kippur and refrained from eating bread during the week of Passover? Could they still be considered Jewish?

    What about those who didn't even go to Temple on the High Holidays, didn't fast on Yom Kippur, and ate bread on Passover but believed in God. Could they still be considered Jewish?

    And what about those who didn't even believe in God? Could they still be considered Jewish?

    The Rabbi concluded, all of these people, assuming they were all born to a Jewish mother, were all Jewish
    . It's an interesting club. Once you're born into it, you can never get out of it. You can swear it off, leave the tribe, ignore all of its rules and rituals, but you're always welcome back whenever you want to come back.

    To be fair, there are many, many Jews who will vehemently disagree with this. Many observant Jews believe that if you disdain the strict rules as outlined in the 613 mitzvot, you are disdaining God and you are no longer one of the Chosen. But these Jews are in the minority to be fair. Most will agree that once Chosen, always Chosen.

    See, Jews try to curry God's favor not to secure privilege in some sort of fantastical afterlife but rather to show appreciation for being given the opportunity to live life in the here and now. It is the Jewish way of showing appreciation for the Covenant between God and the Jews. So we do things like snip off the end of the penises of the week-old males and follow strict dietary laws.

    I, of course, believe in none of this. But that does not matter. I am still a Jew. The Rabbi told me so.
    So, if the analogy holds, I think the answer would in fact be baptism.
    Last edited by Crovash; 01-02-2020 at 11:31 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    So, if the analogy holds, I think the answer would in fact be baptism.
    I'd have to agree. At some point there has to be an objective basis. After that everything becomes subjective.

    In Judaism, it's born to a Jewish mom. In Christianity I'd think it's the moment of baptism. From there the arguments swell. So many Jews will argue with me that if a Jewish boy isn't circumcised with a bris, he's not a Jew. If you don't keep kosher or keep the Sabbath holy, you're not really a Jew. If you don't wear a Yarmulke and acknowledge that God is above you at all times, you're not really a Jew. And so on and so one.

    But to play Devil's Advocate with myself, are any of these conditions any more subjective or arbitrary than my starting point of a Jewish mom or a Baptism? Or do they just reflect my own increased discomfort level with religion?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I'd have to agree. At some point there has to be an objective basis. After that everything becomes subjective.

    In Judaism, it's born to a Jewish mom. In Christianity I'd think it's the moment of baptism. From there the arguments swell. So many Jews will argue with me that if a Jewish boy isn't circumcised with a bris, he's not a Jew. If you don't keep kosher or keep the Sabbath holy, you're not really a Jew. If you don't wear a Yarmulke and acknowledge that God is above you at all times, you're not really a Jew. And so on and so one.

    But to play Devil's Advocate with myself, are any of these conditions any more subjective or arbitrary than my starting point of a Jewish mom or a Baptism? Or do they just reflect my own increased discomfort level with religion?
    Just a guess here, but while baptism might not be sufficient in and of itself to qualify one as a true Christian, by the same token I would venture that one cannot be considered a true Christian without having been baptized.

    After that, it probably begins to fray, depending what is valued and promoted by different denominations.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Just a guess here, but while baptism might not be sufficient in and of itself to qualify one as a true Christian, by the same token I would venture that one cannot be considered a true Christian without having been baptized.

    After that, it probably begins to fray, depending what is valued and promoted by different denominations.
    Yeah, i don't think you get to call yourself a Christian without having first been Baptized at some point. Christians, please weigh in to affirm or correct. Thanks.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Yeah, i don't think you get to call yourself a Christian without having first been Baptized at some point. Christians, please weigh in to affirm or correct. Thanks.
    I have friends who are Quakers, which got me to look this up:

    “While Quakers trace their roots to Christianity, and most Quakers consider themselves Christian, many of their teachings and practices, including those on baptism, differ significantly from other forms of Christianity. Quakers believe that water baptisms occurred during the time of Christ, but that they were not intended to be practiced continually. They believe the rite fails to hold the meaning for believers today that it did when it was initially practiced. In the Quakers' view, this makes baptism unnecessary. To make this point, Quakers often point to John the Baptist's claim that ‘I baptize you with water, but after me comes One who is greater than I...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.’”

    https://classroom.synonym.com/the-qu...-12085718.html

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    I have friends who are Quakers, which got me to look this up:

    “While Quakers trace their roots to Christianity, and most Quakers consider themselves Christian, many of their teachings and practices, including those on baptism, differ significantly from other forms of Christianity. Quakers believe that water baptisms occurred during the time of Christ, but that they were not intended to be practiced continually. They believe the rite fails to hold the meaning for believers today that it did when it was initially practiced. In the Quakers' view, this makes baptism unnecessary. To make this point, Quakers often point to John the Baptist's claim that ‘I baptize you with water, but after me comes One who is greater than I...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.’”

    https://classroom.synonym.com/the-qu...-12085718.html
    Can you imagine if they baptized with fire? Wow!
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Can you imagine if they baptized with fire? Wow!
    Branded.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I'm a non-observant Jew, an agnostic atheist, really, but for identity purposes, I will never deny that I am a Jew. I am very proud of my Jewish heritage even though I neither practice nor observe any of the traditions, customs, or beliefs. For example, I don't light Hanukkah candles. I eat what I want. I don't waste time going to Temple unless invited to help celebrate a friend or family member's "simcha"

    Still, I found myself channel surfing a few years ago on a Sunday morning and came upon the Jewish cable station and saw a Rabbi lecturing to the topic, "What makes a Jew?"

    This should be good for at least a few laughs, I thought. So I watched, expecting to get a few chuckles out of it. What I got was respect for this particular Rabbi and an entirely new way of looking at myself as a Jew.

    The Rabbi asked if only those who followed all 613 of the mitzvot (rules) as listed in the Bible (Old Testament) could truly be considered Jewish.

    What about those who didn't worry so much about most of the mitzvot but kept kosher, observed Shabbat, and went to Temple every Friday night and Saturday? Could they still be considered Jewish?

    What about those who did none of those but just went to Temple for the High Holidays -- Rosh Hoshana and Yom Kippur -- but still fasted on Yom Kippur and refrained from eating bread during the week of Passover? Could they still be considered Jewish?

    What about those who didn't even go to Temple on the High Holidays, didn't fast on Yom Kippur, and ate bread on Passover but believed in God. Could they still be considered Jewish?

    And what about those who didn't even believe in God? Could they still be considered Jewish?

    The Rabbi concluded, all of these people, assuming they were all born to a Jewish mother, were all Jewish. It's an interesting club. Once you're born into it, you can never get out of it. You can swear it off, leave the tribe, ignore all of its rules and rituals, but you're always welcome back whenever you want to come back.

    To be fair, there are many, many Jews who will vehemently disagree with this. Many observant Jews believe that if you disdain the strict rules as outlined in the 613 mitzvot, you are disdaining God and you are no longer one of the Chosen. But these Jews are in the minority to be fair. Most will agree that once Chosen, always Chosen.

    See, Jews try to curry God's favor not to secure privilege in some sort of fantastical afterlife but rather to show appreciation for being given the opportunity to live life in the here and now. It is the Jewish way of showing appreciation for the Covenant between God and the Jews. So we do things like snip off the end of the penises of the week-old males and follow strict dietary laws.

    I, of course, believe in none of this. But that does not matter. I am still a Jew. The Rabbi told me so.
    Interesting post

    Jews consider themselves a race too, so you're probably good under that umbrella 👍
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

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