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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Only 0.5 yards more per target.


    Not an afterthought, but as I made the case earlier, Dez Bryant filled that same role of red-zone target on the Cowboys.

    If you classify what is essentially a receiver as a tight end, he's most likely gonna end up with the bigger receiving stats.


    It's safe to assume if the All-Decade Team had a generic ST spot, Matthew Slater would have made it.

    But if he had made the list as a WR despite barely playing WR, that would be as silly as someone making the list as a TE despite barely playing TE.
    I guess Iím just being dense then, but why is he listed as a TE? I understand he lined up more wide but his designation didnít change. You make him a WR and then this completely changes, but heís still a TE.

    What about yards per target? I made the point that it was a 50 target differential. Still wouldíve put Witten about 500 yards less than Graham at the same number of targets.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    I appreciate your post. Itís very fair.
    Itís just in Grahamís situation heís so horrible at blocking. Doesnít even lineup half the time as a tight end. I really felt Graham should of won his grievance when he said he wasnít a tight end.
    Iím trying to find out more of how do you know Witten was a good blocker and Graham wasnít? The places where you line up I guess but there are good blocking WR too.

    Itís more of me wanting to know where they heíll do you (people) get how to judge a good blocker?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  3. #258
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    NFCE 2020 Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Iím trying to find out more of how do you know Witten was a good blocker and Graham wasnít? The places where you line up I guess but there are good blocking WR too.

    Itís more of me wanting to know where they heíll do you (people) get how to judge a good blocker?


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    I could be wrong but Iím assuming PFF blocking grades is what people look at. Iím sure they have some kind of formula there to show who is a good blocker and who isnít.

    I would like to know how itís being graded though. Thereís probably inconsistent grades when it comes to skill position blocks, for example Zach ertz has a reputation of being a bad blocker but Iíve seen some great blocks from him. So does that just mean heís way more inconsistent or does it mean that the times he does good isnít noted as often as the times he does bad? On the flip side, Dallas goedert is starting to get a reputation of being a great blocker but Iíve also seen him whiff big time on blocks. Also, if a player allows a sack on JJ watt is that graded the same as if he allows a sack on a nobody 7th round pick?

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  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    I guess Iím just being dense then, but why is he listed as a TE? I understand he lined up more wide but his designation didnít change. You make him a WR and then this completely changes, but heís still a TE.
    It's pretty arbitrary actually. He played college basketball for four seasons, his entire eligibility, and didn't show pro potential. So he attended graduate classes and gave football a shot. I assume they put him at TE instead of WR because he was bigger and heavier than even big and heavy WRs. Or maybe they needed a TE more than a WR. In high school he played WR and DE as a junior. His one year of college football wasn't even particularly impressive but he showed potential. He was an extremely raw, extremely athletic prospect.

    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Iím trying to find out more of how do you know Witten was a good blocker and Graham wasnít? The places where you line up I guess but there are good blocking WR too.

    Itís more of me wanting to know where they heíll do you (people) get how to judge a good blocker?
    From watching them play? It's pretty much common knowledge. I guess it could all be a giant conspiracy. But it's not unusual for someone who only played football for a year in college to suck at blocking.

    I remember Seattle's run game had a noticeable decline when they traded Max Unger and a 1st for Graham.
    Last edited by QB_Eagles; 04-08-2020 at 05:27 PM.

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    It's pretty arbitrary actually. He played college basketball for four seasons, his entire eligibility, and didn't show pro potential. So he attended graduate classes and gave football a shot. I assume they put him at TE instead of WR because he was bigger and heavier than even big and heavy WRs. Or maybe they needed a TE more than a WR. In high school he played WR and DE as a junior. His one year of college football wasn't even particularly impressive but he showed potential. He was an extremely raw, extremely athletic prospect.


    From watching them play? It's pretty much common knowledge. I guess it could all be a giant conspiracy. But it's not unusual for someone who only played football for a year in college to suck at blocking.

    I remember Seattle's run game had a noticeable decline when they traded Max Unger and a 1st for Graham.
    I think that had more to do with Under than Graham TBH.

    I think the interesting thing with Graham is he's not a great straight line blocker. But when he's asked to move and block he's not that bad. I think I would classify him more as a H-Back than TE.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    It's pretty arbitrary actually. He played college basketball for four seasons, his entire eligibility, and didn't show pro potential. So he attended graduate classes and gave football a shot. I assume they put him at TE instead of WR because he was bigger and heavier than even big and heavy WRs. Or maybe they needed a TE more than a WR. In high school he played WR and DE as a junior. His one year of college football wasn't even particularly impressive but he showed potential. He was an extremely raw, extremely athletic prospect.


    From watching them play? It's pretty much common knowledge. I guess it could all be a giant conspiracy. But it's not unusual for someone who only played football for a year in college to suck at blocking.

    I remember Seattle's run game had a noticeable decline when they traded Max Unger and a 1st for Graham.
    The ole eye test isnít always right.

    That was kind of my point to all of this. You can watch for sure as that needs to happen for everything but Iím one that likes to use my eyes and stats. Eye tests could be used against actual great players where eye test can be used to be crap players seem great. It happens all the time.

    I donít doubt Graham is a bad blocker but regardless if you want to consider Graham a Wr vs TE, Iíd like to see how Wittens blocking ability makes him so much more valuable than Graham and his crap blocking ability.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I think that had more to do with Under than Graham TBH.
    Not necessarily, because Patrick Lewis in 2015 and Justin Britt from 2016 onward were decent replacements. Marshawn Lynch getting injured didn't help either. But blocking is pretty much all the Seahawks TEs did before Graham arrived.

    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    The ole eye test isnít always right.

    That was kind of my point to all of this. You can watch for sure as that needs to happen for everything but Iím one that likes to use my eyes and stats. Eye tests could be used against actual great players where eye test can be used to be crap players seem great. It happens all the time.

    I donít doubt Graham is a bad blocker but regardless if you want to consider Graham a Wr vs TE, Iíd like to see how Wittens blocking ability makes him so much more valuable than Graham and his crap blocking ability.
    If there were stats for blocking, the argument would be a lot simpler.

    Take this play for example; it's a 1-yard loss that won't show up on Graham's stat sheet: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...m-misses-block

    (Don't ask me why NFL.com has a highlight video of Jimmy Graham missing a block.)

    Witten's receiving abilities have been on a steady decline the last few years but having him on the field was still essentially like having 6 linemen. Obviously Graham didn't miss every block. But each one he did is like trying to execute a play with 10 players on the field.

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I was trying to go extreme to make my point though. Number of years played makes it very easy to stack lots of stats over a guy that had less year. Maybe we make it a bit more even and ask Dalton or Mahomes? Would you go Dalton just because he had 100 more starts and therefor more stats, or Mahomes because he's better in games played over the same end date?

    When it comes to this argument, the reason stats are tipping to Witten as they are is because Witten played 50 more games than Kelce did. 50 games for 600 more yards, 190 more catches, and 8 more TD's. Do you think that Kelce could have had 80 catches for 300 yards (3.1 yards per catch) and 4TD's per season for 2 years if he had them? Because that's what it would take to match Witten. I think the catches are a touch out of reach, but those yards and TD's would easily be blown by in those 2 years. And blocking wise, I don't think that Witten is better by enough of Kelce (blocking is one of Kelce's most underrated spots) to overcome what Kelce has done is yards and TD's.

    And just to give a picture of how big those 2 years are:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s#totals::none

    So now we're looking at same number of seasons played:
    Witten has 12 more catches, 1400 less yards, 6 less TD's. Yes I get much of this is the backside of Witten's career, but even though Witten played most of the decade, he's a guy who's prime hit at the decade change over, as opposed to Kelce who's prime is happening though most the decade.
    Thatís not a fair comparison either because Dalton is nowhere near the class of player Ben is/was.


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  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    Thatís not a fair comparison either because Dalton is nowhere near the class of player Ben is/was.


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    Why not? If you think an all decade team is just about longevity then you should feel comfortable saying Dalton would belong on before Mahomes.

  10. #265
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    Dak hosts party with 30+ guests amid social distancing orders nationwide. Tone deaf.

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Dak hosts party with 30+ guests amid social distancing orders nationwide. Tone deaf.
    Glad to know my QB isnít stupid enough to break any orders/laws [emoji6]

  12. #267
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    NFCE 2020 Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Dak hosts party with 30+ guests amid social distancing orders nationwide. Tone deaf.
    And thereís also this:


    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...-restrictions/


    Heís kind of a dumbass with this thing to be honest. Heís like the football version of Rudy Gobert

    Your baby can't do this

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Dak hosts party with 30+ guests amid social distancing orders nationwide. Tone deaf.
    He's such a leader!

  14. #269
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    That proves it, Dak is a bad character guy.


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  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgjohnson7851 View Post
    He's such a leader!
    The fact that Dak got some guys to literally stare death in the face just to workout with him actually shows great leadership. Wentz has guys calling him out in the media and Dak has players willing to die for him. Iíd say that a leader.


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