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  1. #91
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    15 part series - Analyzing Present-Future of each Knick- Mark Hale, Marc Berman

    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    only thing missing for Frank is the jumper and it's coming around.

    You're too focused on NOW and we are a rebuilding team, NOW shouldn't be the priority. and obviously Mitch hasn't shown ANY hope for a shot like KP, he's never even taken a jumper.

    Moe will be 27 next month and has 8 seasons under his belt, he is what he is and i don't view him as particularly a high IQ guy, he has great physical tools but the rest of his game is lacking. but Frank has hope to take that next step. Frank has played PG for 3 years including the youngest starting PG in the FIBA tourney so I think most agree he can handle better then just a "little". His handles have improved quite a bit, he might not have the attacking/scoring mindset of a modern PG but he definitely has PG handles. Moe also can't pass like Frank.

    so again you take Moe who is a decent role player, good enough to start for a contending team like POR & LAC, you take him and you give him PG handles, passing ability and a jumper and you're telling me he wouldn't be a helluva player?

    And you're telling me Frank is so far away from being a good shooter?
    He is far away from being a good shooter and further away from having pg handles and being a high IQ ball handler. I see a kid canít take people off the dribble, that doesnít control pace, picks up his dribble in terrible spots, and constantly turns down driving lane. Just bc he doesnít dribble into traffic like Randle or throw passes to no one in particular like Eddie Curry doesnt make him some high IQ savant like J Kidd. He is closer to being a high IQ pg with handles and a jump shot then Mitch is to being a 3 point shooter but he not near close enough for me to say ok now heís a guy that is part of our future. Like I said if he stay he stays. If he goes he goes but we should open to moving him and the fact that we have Frank should not impact other personal decisions in any way


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  2. #92
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    15 part series - Analyzing Present-Future of each Knick- Mark Hale, Marc Berman

    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    if he plays well to earn the QO I think he'd get extended or resigned to a long term contract, re-signing him for 1 year and then losing his rights would be kind of pointless, teams don't generally do that with young guys.
    My guess is that he is a little more constant next year and earns another year. I think he would have make a significant jump to warrant a long term investment. You are sold on him becoming something significantly better then he currently is so you want to pay him now. That makes sense but I donít think that will happen. I think he will have to prove that who he is first


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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    He is far away from being a good shooter and further away from having pg handles and being a high IQ ball handler. I see a kid canít take people off the dribble, that doesnít control pace, picks up his dribble in terrible spots, and constantly turns down driving lane. Just bc he doesnít dribble into traffic like Randle or throw passes to no one in particular like Eddie Curry doesnt make him some high IQ savant like J Kidd. He is closer to being a high IQ pg with handles and a jump shot then Mitch is to being a 3 point shooter but he not near close enough for me to say ok now heís a guy that is part of our future. Like I said if he stay he stays. If he goes he goes but we should open to moving him and the fact that we have Frank should not impact other personal decisions in any way


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    of all things to criticize Frank for I've never heard anyone say he wasn't a high IQ guy.

    Being timid on offense doesn't equate to low IQ, and if you watch him on defense he is very clearly the smartest guy out there, which maybe isn't saying much for our team but Frank's IQ shines on defense and it's a big reason why we are consistently a much better defensive team when he's out there for 3 years now and why he led the team in NET rating.

    And saying he doesn't have PG handles is also odd considering every coach plays him at PG at every level. You act like he's Dotson or Harkless out there with his handles. If he had no handle he'd average 3-4 TO's per game. His TO's were at a career low this year, you can't say his handles' haven't improved. he may not be a true modern PG but his handles are 10x better than Moe and that was my general point.

    i may be high on Frank but you're unfairly low on him, If Frank was low IQ with no handles and no hope of a jumper he would never have been a top 10 pick.
    Last edited by nycericanguy; 04-01-2020 at 08:27 AM.

  4. #94
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    15 part series - Analyzing Present-Future of each Knick- Mark Hale, Marc Berman

    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    of all things to criticize Frank for I've never heard anyone say he wasn't a high IQ guy.

    Being timid on offense doesn't equate to low IQ, and if you watch him on defense he is very clearly the smartest guy out there, which maybe isn't saying much for our team but Frank's IQ shines on defense and it's a big reason why we are consistently a much better defensive team when he's out there for 3 years now and why he led the team in NET rating.

    And saying he doesn't have PG handles is also odd considering every coach plays him at PG at every level. You act like he's Dotson or Harkless out there with his handles. If he had no handle he'd average 3-4 TO's per game. His TO's were at a career low this year, you can't say his handles' haven't improved. he may not be a true modern PG but his handles are 10x better than Moe and that was my general point.

    i may be high on Frank but you're unfairly low on him, If Frank was low IQ with no handles and no hope of a jumper he would never have been a top 10 pick.
    Youíve heard it now. Bring timid on offense equals low IQ when your job is to control the offense. Make him a wing and he becomes a high IQ player imo but his ceiling also falls. If he played a smarter game on offense as a pg his TOs would actually be higher bc he would not be deferring or walking it down the floor when he should be pushing. I also had pg handles in HS and on the D3 level. Ron Baker had them all the way through big time college ball. Frank looks like he is being moved off the point bc he is not an NBA level ball handler


    That is why he was picked high but 3 years with minimum improvement and that hope fades. He looks like a decent role player to me. A guy that adds value but who you do not plan around or invest big in. You can disagree but I think that is fair

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  5. #95
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    I get that the still very young Frank N would give us bursts and then regress in his time here. Then there's the groin. To me, his most recent burst forward was far and away the most promising and it is just one more thing that sucks about the Corona shutdown that he doesn't have the opportunity to show whether it's fools gold or not. Regardless, after RJ and Mitch he's the next guy on the roster I'd like to see them hang onto going forward.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Seats View Post
    I get that the still very young Frank N would give us bursts and then regress in his time here. Then there's the groin. To me, his most recent burst forward was far and away the most promising and it is just one more thing that sucks about the Corona shutdown that he doesn't have the opportunity to show whether it's fools gold or not. Regardless, after RJ and Mitch he's the next guy on the roster I'd like to see them hang onto going forward.
    yea we dont have much but Mitch, RJ & Frank are the keepers for now.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    yea we dont have much but Mitch, RJ & Frank are the keepers for now.
    And Knox I suppose -- he's a much bigger disappointment than Frank but is also still very young and it's too early to cut bait I'd say. But I don't have my hopes up. Add to those guys whoever we pick in the draft and hope for a lightning in a bottle FA or trade or something...maybe Randle can find a productive role or an Iggy can step up...not much to hang your hat on but I prefer it to the Bargiani/Curry/Marbury approach....

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfStarks View Post
    Haha ok, Iíll pretend you werenít saying Knicks should/would be trading Frank for a 2nd last year and he wouldnít be on the roster this past season etc. etc.

    Weíre all knicks fans and part of the same fam and I got love for you all but you absolutely talk out of both sides of your mouth on Frank. You ďlikeĒ Frank but at the same time always bring up trading him/dumping him. Itís fine you think heís a wing not a PG, and also not really a keeper. Other than saying you ďlikeĒ him you mostly do not seem to be a fan of his game/what he brings to the table. Itís sort of in almost every one of your posts on him so it is what it is.

    I get theyíre just reports. But if Frank allows you to move up 12-15 picks (which Iím not saying I outright believe to be the case), then his value around the league is higher than what you and others have perceived it to be.

    Personally Iíd try to keep him and if needed use a different asset to move up in the draft (if needed).
    Did I I come up with the rumors lol, and I did agree that I thought Knicks would trade him, and I feel there were no takers, others will say knicks kept him, you say tomato, etc etc....

    I do like Frank, nice kid, decent player, works hard.......when haven't I said that........you guys just want me to say great and I won't......haha ok?

    So you think moving up and giving up a pick has value? Did I not say that, Come on heart read my post, I said to his credit he is the only knick other than Mitch and RJ.......did I not say that?

    Stop making assumptions or putting words in my posts, okay.

    I just don't see him like you and Rican do..........and no Rican right now I stick by he is not worth 8.5m, no he is not, and I've said how many times this is a huge season for him, did I not?

    So I always every month seem to say the same Sh it over and over and over..........and you two come back with the same wrong interpretations over and over and over.

    Let me know if you think any of the above is not right or lets just put it to bed.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    He is far away from being a good shooter and further away from having pg handles and being a high IQ ball handler. I see a kid canít take people off the dribble, that doesnít control pace, picks up his dribble in terrible spots, and constantly turns down driving lane. Just bc he doesnít dribble into traffic like Randle or throw passes to no one in particular like Eddie Curry doesnt make him some high IQ savant like J Kidd. He is closer to being a high IQ pg with handles and a jump shot then Mitch is to being a 3 point shooter but he not near close enough for me to say ok now heís a guy that is part of our future. Like I said if he stay he stays. If he goes he goes but we should open to moving him and the fact that we have Frank should not impact other personal decisions in any way


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    see the problem here, because you post how you feel with backup you are extremely low on Frank but others who are very high on him can't show much backup but very few games but they are right about him?

    He is far from a keeper, I wouldn't trade him for a bag of donuts and in this draft they are saying picks 6-20 are pick em.........so how does trading our pick and Frank mean he has so much value that we underrate him?

    I would say if we traded him and our pick for a known entity are draft pick assumed to be a sure thing then fine, but this draft in the late lottery I'm not sure giving up our pick and Frank is worth it. Unless Knicks don't have Frank in high regards because if they did this will not happen.

    Seems to me giving up an 8 pick and Clips pick to move up says not much for Frank and Knicks feelings

    but this is all the Post so it's rumors just like last year.

    for the record I'd love Frank to earn his QO and the get extended, how great for knick fans

  10. #100
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    Time to move on to the Next Knick player, man this Frank crap is old, and very redundant.

  11. #101
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    Stilla, I love you man, the die hards are still on this board and it's not the same elsewhere to be honest. I always end up coming back here to talk Knicks.

    Just think it comes across as disingenuous to say you like Frank yet keep putting him in trades and saying he's gone every summer among all the other stuff you've said about him.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    Did I I come up with the rumors lol, and I did agree that I thought Knicks would trade him, and I feel there were no takers, others will say knicks kept him, you say tomato, etc etc....

    I do like Frank, nice kid, decent player, works hard.......when haven't I said that........you guys just want me to say great and I won't......haha ok?

    So you think moving up and giving up a pick has value? Did I not say that, Come on heart read my post, I said to his credit he is the only knick other than Mitch and RJ.......did I not say that?

    Stop making assumptions or putting words in my posts, okay.

    I just don't see him like you and Rican do..........and no Rican right now I stick by he is not worth 8.5m, no he is not, and I've said how many times this is a huge season for him, did I not?

    So I always every month seem to say the same Sh it over and over and over..........and you two come back with the same wrong interpretations over and over and over.

    Let me know if you think any of the above is not right or lets just put it to bed.
    I got it from this post, your posts below and your other Frank posts, heís not a keeper to you. Thatís fine, youíre far from alone in having no interest in keeping him.

    I like him AS A PLAYER, which is the difference I suppose, and would keep him on a reasonable deal. If he helps you get a superior prospect obviously he is far from untouchable. At the same time at some point it would be nice to actually develop and keep our own prospects which the best teams seem to do and we seem to never do.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfStarks View Post
    I got it from this post, your posts below and your other Frank posts, heís not a keeper to you. Thatís fine, youíre far from alone in having no interest in keeping him.

    I like him AS A PLAYER, which is the difference I suppose, and would keep him on a reasonable deal. If he helps you get a superior prospect obviously he is far from untouchable. At the same time at some point it would be nice to actually develop and keep our own prospects which the best teams seem to do and we seem to never do.
    Very fair take


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  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfStarks View Post
    I got it from this post, your posts below and your other Frank posts, heís not a keeper to you. Thatís fine, youíre far from alone in having no interest in keeping him.

    I like him AS A PLAYER, which is the difference I suppose, and would keep him on a reasonable deal. If he helps you get a superior prospect obviously he is far from untouchable. At the same time at some point it would be nice to actually develop and keep our own prospects which the best teams seem to do and we seem to never do.
    well your not getting it, because I agree.....Frank to me at 8.5 today, is not worth it, if he continues to remain the same then valued much lower yea I'd love to keep him because of age, personality, and hard work.

    But when I read that he should be locked up for over 8m I can't agree with that, we have all of next year to make that decision.

    And the part about moving him, only if it makes sense, I'll repeat this yet again, I would not trade him for a 2nd round pick that makes no sense, but the right trade or included in a package, if it makes the team better I'm all in. I don't consider him a main stay or as one of three keepers.

    Does any of the above mean I don't like him or wouldn't want him here? What is a reasonable deal?

    Are we not saying the same things yet you categorize me differently? I'm not getting it?

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    well your not getting it, because I agree.....Frank to me at 8.5 today, is not worth it, if he continues to remain the same then valued much lower yea I'd love to keep him because of age, personality, and hard work.

    But when I read that he should be locked up for over 8m I can't agree with that, we have all of next year to make that decision.

    And the part about moving him, only if it makes sense, I'll repeat this yet again, I would not trade him for a 2nd round pick that makes no sense, but the right trade or included in a package, if it makes the team better I'm all in. I don't consider him a main stay or as one of three keepers.

    Does any of the above mean I don't like him or wouldn't want him here? What is a reasonable deal?

    Are we not saying the same things yet you categorize me differently? I'm not getting it?
    I mean youíre all over the place. Yes youíre basically saying you donít want him. Someone will sign him for 8 million. Heís 21 years old and an elite defender.

    What contract would you give him? 2 years 7 million? Heís not a keeper to you and thatís fine. I disagree but you clearly do not value him then simultaneously say ďI like him.Ē You donít really like him as a player though clearly.

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