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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    He did need to. Fizdale let him handle the ball out behide the 3 point line too much. He seems a little obsessed with the idea of having a point forward


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    Every time Randle would bring the ball up and ignore the PGs I would be so pissed. Heís become a team cancer IMO. I really hope we can deal him away or send him to the bench so he can lose his ego.

  2. #137
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    15 part series - Analyzing Present-Future of each Knick- Mark Hale, Marc Berman

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    Like I said the team struggled for the reasons I mentioned. Our depth at PG was ravaged and the team chemistry was poor with new players. Payton coming back just helped the team get back to normal. He should not be brought back as he is a square peg in a round hole.
    Here is a sequence of events. They werenít the worst offense in the league, he got hurt, they were the worst offense in the league, he came back, they were a middle of the pack team on offense when he was on the floor and the worst offensive team in the league when he was off.

    You are right pg depth was clearly a problem. This team was very reliant on him. I doubt they go into next year banking on DSJ (heís terrible) or Frank who many are starting to see a wing providing consistency at the point. Unless someone is signed to replace him he will very likely be back


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    Last edited by ewing; 04-06-2020 at 06:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Here is a sequence of events. They werenít the worst offense in the league, he got hurt, they were the worst offense in the league, he came back, they were a middle of the pack team on offense when he was on the floor and the worst offensive team in the league when he was off.

    You are right pg depth was clearly a problem. This team was very reliant on him. I doubt they go into next year banking on DSJ (heís terrible) or Frank who many are starting to see a wing providing consistency at the point. Unless someone is signed to replace him he will very likely be back


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    While I agree with you the team was downright awful on offense without Payton, especially early on in the year, I think a lot of that had to do with (1) over-reliance on Randle as a point forward early on (remember how terrible he was overall in the beginning of the season), (2) RJ struggling in the beginning of the year, and (3) DSJ getting minutes.

    As for next year, I'm not sure it's a given that Payton will be on the team. Payton would have to accept a role as a backup to a 19 or 20 year old PG (assuming we do the right thing and draft one with our first pick).

    I think we could bring in a veteran who wouldn't be expecting to start on a lower salary, in more of a mentor role. Or, we could also draft a second PG with the Clips pick or our second round pick, in which case I'd rather just role with who we have on the roster.

  4. #139
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    15 part series - Analyzing Present-Future of each Knick- Mark Hale, Marc Berman

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba313 View Post
    While I agree with you the team was downright awful on offense without Payton, especially early on in the year, I think a lot of that had to do with (1) over-reliance on Randle as a point forward early on (remember how terrible he was overall in the beginning of the season), (2) RJ struggling in the beginning of the year, and (3) DSJ getting minutes.

    As for next year, I'm not sure it's a given that Payton will be on the team. Payton would have to accept a role as a backup to a 19 or 20 year old PG (assuming we do the right thing and draft one with our first pick).

    I think we could bring in a veteran who wouldn't be expecting to start on a lower salary, in more of a mentor role. Or, we could also draft a second PG with the Clips pick or our second round pick, in which case I'd rather just role with who we have on the roster.
    I am fine with replacing him. I donít know if they are going to be willing to replace him with 19 year old. Based on our history I think the team wants at least one guy that they know will be fairly competent at the position. I donít think anyone on the current roaster has shown they can be that guy (I donít think DSJ can and Frank hasnít shown any consistency yet). Iím guessing he is back as a stop gag/mentor or they get a different stop gag like you mentioned


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    Last edited by ewing; 04-06-2020 at 12:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  5. #140
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    Knicks only scored 2ppg more per 100 possessions with Payton vs Frank, but the defense was also better with Frank so really it was a wash.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Knicks only scored 2ppg more per 100 possessions with Payton vs Frank, but the defense was also better with Frank so really it was a wash.
    Stats like this don't matter in the least. Any one that watched the games will tell you that Frank was inept running the offense. He was the worst version of a pg and didn't compete with what Payton brought day in and day out. You're really stretching with this Frank stuff. Can't put a round peg in a square hole.

  7. #142
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    15 part series - Analyzing Present-Future of each Knick- Mark Hale, Marc Berman

    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    Stats like this don't matter in the least. Any one that watched the games will tell you that Frank was inept running the offense. He was the worst version of a pg and didn't compete with what Payton brought day in and day out. You're really stretching with this Frank stuff. Can't put a round peg in a square hole.
    It means something. Frank did get better this year and I am surprised it is that close. I still donít think you can trust him and suspect if you had to you would see the gap widen. That said maybe he is ready for another shot.


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    Last edited by ewing; 04-06-2020 at 04:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    Stats like this don't matter in the least. Any one that watched the games will tell you that Frank was inept running the offense. He was the worst version of a pg and didn't compete with what Payton brought day in and day out. You're really stretching with this Frank stuff. Can't put a round peg in a square hole.
    I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion that the offense was better with Payton. My questions are how much better, and, based on what we learn from that question, why was it (1) that much better or (2) not as much better as you might anticipate.

    My thought: The offense was more fluid with Payton because everything ran through him and to a lesser extent Randle. Payton acted as a typical point guard, holding the ball longer and initiating offense whenever he could. Those are not bad things, to be clear.

    On the flip side, with Frank running point, the offense was a bit more robotic. Frank basically always ran the play, and did little freelancing. While Frank's deference at the point of attack gave others more freedom to make plays of their own, for better (Mook and RJ) and worse (Randle), it also led to a lot of bad shots at the end of the shot clock when things were stagnant.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I can understand why aesthetically Payton playing point guard looked so much better. But how much better was it actually, and do we understand why?

  9. #144
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    we played slower with Frank but still as effective as with Payton. as opposed to with DSJR where we only scored 99ppg per 100. not sure how those stats wouldn't matter?

  10. #145
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    Anyone who has watched the game knows, Frank and RJ have the best chemistry. Frank isn't afraid to make the extra pass. NO ONE ELSE does that.

    Payton is one-trick pony. HORRIBLE offensively but that's Perry's boy in his time working in Orlando Front Office.

    The ball movement stops after its dumped off. That's what you get playing vets only interested in personal numbers and stats. When these chumps don't have the ball, they just STAND THERE. That's the reason why this team is so terrible, consistently.

    I still don't understand why two coaches have tried to turn Frank Ntilikina into a 3-point shooter. That's almost as daft as asking Ben Simmons to just shoot 3s. DUMB. STUPID.

    At only age 21, Frank Ntilikina has the height of a forward with freaky wingspan of a condor. He should be told to drive because he's the Knicks' second best free throw shooter. Drawing contact, weakens the defense.

    Payton drives to dish. He can't take contact. His injury woes are proof he plays scared of his own shadow.

    I'm glad Leon Rose is here. The Knicks can't develop anyone. They might as well, go the Brooklyn route and overpay. THAT'S the ONLY way this franchise will win.

  11. #146
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    Lol you can't even play payton at the end of games because he's afraid to shoot outside the paint and can't hit free throws. Neeeexxxtttt

  12. #147
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    Personally I wouldnít keep any of these vets.

    Cole-Hield-RJ-Gallo-Mitch
    Frank-Dot-Nesmith-Knox-Wood
    Sanon-Trier-Iggy-Wooten-Tillie

    Go for something like that imo.

  13. #148
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    Thatíd be awesome but you canít always get what you want


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Thatíd be awesome but you canít always get what you want


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    100% but if you set something like that as the goal then you can at least aim for it or something close and then fill in the gaps as needed.

    I just think we need to see smarter/more effective GMing this summer. Itís painful that we didnít let Riley run this franchise from the 90s on. Talk about a guy who knows how to transform a roster and build winners.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfStarks View Post
    So youíre not correcting me lol because thatís exactly what I said you said. Donít sign him now, wait, and trade him if possible.

    Iím Knicks first too man Iím just saying based on your assessment there you donít really value him much which is fine. I donít even know what weíre arguing about at this point we can just agree we value him differently at the moment.

    Btw Iím fine with waiting to resign him unless thereís a downside to that Iím not seeing. Maybe rican can explain what the potential downside to waiting to resign him is.

    I said trade him in the right deal, how is that not thinking highly of him? I'm actually higher on him than he's played lol.......you two or three are just over the top......

    It is a stupid business move to sign him now, showing faith Rican says is an emotion, not good business, there is a reason we have him locked up, so don't use it? Sounds like it's more like a Mills move that everyone hates, but since it's Frank it's OKay to not be smart and prudent?

    No it's not, and I'd trade Mitch in the right trade, now do I not think highly of him?

    Frank for 4 or 5 posters is off the charts in fanhood, there is not even a question on that.

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