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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Knicks only scored 2ppg more per 100 possessions with Payton vs Frank, but the defense was also better with Frank so really it was a wash.
    I think you have it wrong, 2 ppg more but Frank is also 2 ppg more on defense, that is a negative not a positive per 100 possessions........

    Payton 105/111
    Frank 103/113

    Also do Win shares per 48 count? I bet they would if they favored Frank? .065 to .037

    What about Per, some say yes but some say no, depends on who it favors I guess:
    Payton 16.0
    Frank 9.8

    Steal %-
    Payton 2.7
    Frank 2.2

    Def Win shares:
    Payton 1.2
    Frank 0.8

    BPM
    Payton 0.00
    Frank -3.2
    and they were just about equal on defense, so I'm not seeing the edge>

    In fact I'm not seeing the edge in most 100 poss stats or per 48?

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    I think you have it wrong, 2 ppg more but Frank is also 2 ppg more on defense, that is a negative not a positive per 100 possessions........

    Payton 105/111
    Frank 103/113

    Also do Win shares per 48 count? I bet they would if they favored Frank? .065 to .037

    What about Per, some say yes but some say no, depends on who it favors I guess:
    Payton 16.0
    Frank 9.8

    Steal %-
    Payton 2.7
    Frank 2.2

    Def Win shares:
    Payton 1.2
    Frank 0.8

    BPM
    Payton 0.00
    Frank -3.2
    and they were just about equal on defense, so I'm not seeing the edge>

    In fact I'm not seeing the edge in most 100 poss stats or per 48?
    Again, you're looking at INDIVIDUAL ORTG.

    We're talking how the TEAM does.

    I dont even look at win shares in the NBA for ANY player, it's not a very good stat for a team game.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    Stats like this don't matter in the least. Any one that watched the games will tell you that Frank was inept running the offense. He was the worst version of a pg and didn't compete with what Payton brought day in and day out. You're really stretching with this Frank stuff. Can't put a round peg in a square hole.
    the stats actually do speak for themselves but it appears some want to exaggerate or only bring up stats that help Frank's case, I can to that for Baker lol......but if you look at all the stats and group them it's not a discussion.

    And then to actually bring up contracts from an article that more proves why the Knicks need to wait because who the heck wants those three players on the contracts they got, they didn't come close to living up to them and Exum is the closet in player abilities and defense, and now you would have trouble trading him for a 2nd round pick.

    I realize it's hard to separate being a fan of a player with the business aspect but it's reality and this team stinks and we need to get better and do whatever it takes. That goes for the entire roster, this isn't pick and choose.

    If there is an opportunity to better the team there is no Steph, Harden, Lebron, Giannis, AD, KD etc on this team.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Again, you're looking at INDIVIDUAL ORTG.

    We're talking how the TEAM does.

    I dont even look at win shares in the NBA for ANY player, it's not a very good stat for a team game.
    yea throw those out also, you raved about Taj most of the season he had the worst 100 poss on off on the team of all players not named DSJ and it's not close, -12.0.

    As I've said anyone can make anyone look good or bad using whatever stats you want, the bottom line is what they bring to the team.

    Frank's young he's not a finished product that is what he has going for him.

  5. #155
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    15 part series, 14 parts Frank, 1 part rest of the team lol........

    Move on........

  6. #156
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    Allonzo Trier-Part 15 of a series analyzing the New York Knicks.

    On opening night in San Antonio, former Knicks coach David Fizdale decided to start RJ Barrett at point guard and Allonzo Trier at shooting guard. It was a stunning move at the time and an alignment that didn’t last more than that October night.

    Fizdale says now he did it “RJ at the point opening night was to try to get Zo on the court more,’’ Fizdale told The Post recently. “But ultimately we needed Elfrid [Payton] on the court to manage the team. It was more about the glut than [Trier].

    The Rise and Fall of Trier was a riddle wrapped in an enigma during the 2019-20 campaign that is currently on hold because of the coronavirus pandemic.

    By mid-November, the undrafted Arizona sniper fell out of the rotation completely and he never got back in.

    Trier appeared in 24 games of 66 games — the odd man out in an overstuffed backcourt. When he did enter the game, it was mostly in garbage time.

    It is likely Trier would have resurfaced if Fizdale wasn’t fired on Dec. 6. Interim coach Mike Miller never paid Trier any mind, preferring more defensive-oriented players with experience.

    “Zo is an offensive talent who was improving at sharing the ball,’’ Fizdale said. “His position was deep — [Wayne] Ellington, [RJ] Barrett, [Damyean] Dotson, [Reggie] Bullock and some Frank [Ntilikina]. That’s six guys, counting Zo, that needed minutes at the shooting-guard position. How do you get him quality minutes?”

    In training camp, Fizdale touted Trier as attempting to shed his “IsoZo’’ nickname — which also was his Twitter handle. The Post reported after last season some teammates being upset over Trier’s iso tendencies and on-court selfishness.

    Former Knicks president Steve Mills still was quick to rip up his two-way contract amid his solid rookie season. Mills lavished the undrafted Trier with a two-year deal that allowed Trier to make $3.4 million in 2019-20.

    Sources have indicated Trier’s defense was too suspect — not having a defined defensive position to guard. He will be a free agent this summer.

    “He made young-guy mistakes on defense but nothing over-the-top bad,’’ said Fizdale, who is working with ESPN while awaiting his next coaching job.

    “He had an incredible work ethic and matured as a teammate. If a team can slot him as a backup 2, you may get to see him be consistently effective because he’s tough and fearless.”

    Trier made all the politically correct remarks about working on being a cheerleader on the bench and “honing his craft’’ in practice. But teammates knew he burned inside about the demotion.

    On Feb. 26 in Charlotte, Trier single-handedly led a fiery fourth-quarter comeback after coming in cold. But he couldn’t sink the potential game-tying 3-pointer in the final minute of another loss.

    “It’s been a long year for him being up and down and out of the rotation and then having an impact like that — that’s big,’’ Bobby Portis said that night.

    The day before, in a rare interview, Trier said, “I like what I bring to the table.’’

    That’s as bold a statement Trier would make. There is expected to be another NBA team willing to sign him as there were inquiries at the trade deadline.

    Trier is just 24. When he did enter a game, he put up points. Trier averaged 19.6 points per 36 minutes, shot 48.1 percent — 35.8 from 3.

    “His high-water mark as an NBA player could’ve come his rookie year,’’ one NBA coach-turned-scout said. “He had to play. Guys at 26, 27 — does he figure out how to be a great role player, be on a good team coming off the bench? He still wants to score. His reputation in high school and college was a kid kind of up and down. He surprised me his rookie year. Even as a rookie, I don’t think he learned how to play winning basketball. Can he be part of winning basketball?’’

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    yea throw those out also, you raved about Taj most of the season he had the worst 100 poss on off on the team of all players not named DSJ and it's not close, -12.0.

    As I've said anyone can make anyone look good or bad using whatever stats you want, the bottom line is what they bring to the team.

    Frank's young he's not a finished product that is what he has going for him.
    Taj was a -8.3. Taj is old, as a mentor for spot minutes he's fine. I dont think anyone is suggesting he play a big role.

    We were talking about TEAM stats, you're jumping in with individual stats.

    You're arguing Frank isn't a good individual offensive player, I think we all know this? The question was about how the TEAM did when he was starting.

    Frank's offense needs to get better, but he still helps the team be better even now.

  8. #158
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    I will say that the burying of Trier was about the biggest head scratcher for me this season. I get the defense thing but it would be worth seeing if he could make progress. Which is how I feel about all the younger guys really.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Again, you're looking at INDIVIDUAL ORTG.

    We're talking how the TEAM does.

    I dont even look at win shares in the NBA for ANY player, it's not a very good stat for a team game.
    I’d Frank “win share” was good I bet you’d look


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  10. #160
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    15 part series - Analyzing Present-Future of each Knick- Mark Hale, Marc Berman

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Seats View Post
    I will say that the burying of Trier was about the biggest head scratcher for me this season. I get the defense thing but it would be worth seeing if he could make progress. Which is how I feel about all the younger guys really.
    It was a mistake. He is the most well rounded offensive player on the team and it isn’t close. I think even if he can’t defend he will find a bench role somewhere better then this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Seats View Post
    I will say that the burying of Trier was about the biggest head scratcher for me this season. I get the defense thing but it would be worth seeing if he could make progress. Which is how I feel about all the younger guys really.
    He was actually making progress and was at least trying to be a more team oriented player. But you know the knicks being the knicks buried him and Dotson but pretend as if they know what they're doing. At least he'll stay in ny when he goes to Brooklyn. Then we'll start saying "dammm! Wish we had a guy like him!"
    Last edited by SoulBrotha; 04-07-2020 at 03:13 PM.

  12. #162
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    I like Trier but there are reasons why he didn’t play. If he showed he could hit catch and shoot 3s at a high clip the discussion around him would be very different.

    He’s not much of a ball mover and he also isn’t super decisive with the ball, a lot of dribbling etc. I just think he (like Randle) plays a style that doesn’t really work in the modern NBA.

    He’s a good scorer and I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up a good 3 point shooter, even on volume, which is why I would try to keep and develop him personally (on a vet min contract). But for example Dotson to me is potentially the more effective guard moving forward based on his catch and shoot ability, moving off ball, curl and catch, attacking closeouts, and defensive potential. At this point he’s the far better prospect imo for all of those reasons.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfStarks View Post
    I like Trier but there are reasons why he didn’t play. If he showed he could hit catch and shoot 3s at a high clip the discussion around him would be very different.

    He’s not much of a ball mover and he also isn’t super decisive with the ball, a lot of dribbling etc. I just think he (like Randle) plays a style that doesn’t really work in the modern NBA.

    He’s a good scorer and I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up a good 3 point shooter, even on volume, which is why I would try to keep and develop him personally (on a vet min contract). But for example Dotson to me is potentially the more effective guard moving forward based on his catch and shoot ability, moving off ball, curl and catch, attacking closeouts, and defensive potential. At this point he’s the far better prospect imo for all of those reasons.
    Guess we'll never know will we since we don't see anything thru

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulBrotha View Post
    Guess we'll never know will we since we don't see anything thru
    Sad but true. I said it earlier and I stand by it there isn’t one vet we signed last summer, including Harkless in that trade that I’d bring back. None of them are keepers imo. Much rather keep a guy like Trier for another year or two and actually attempt to develop him. But Knicks gonna Knick.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfStarks View Post
    Sad but true. I said it earlier and I stand by it there isn’t one vet we signed last summer, including Harkless in that trade that I’d bring back. None of them are keepers imo. Much rather keep a guy like Trier for another year or two and actually attempt to develop him. But Knicks gonna Knick.
    Well there's the T Shirt!

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