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  1. #16
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    You guys can hate Lebron all you want and you do have a point for it. Which I tend to agree with. But you also have to see that the Cavs failed him twice.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  2. #17
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    Well, I think they lose Boozer no matter what, so there's that. How on earth were they expecting to keep Boozer with half the money Utah was offering?

    Drafting Al Jefferson instead of Luke Jackson at #10 could have worked out nice for them but their situation was always going to be difficult for various reasons. Their teams from 2006 and on weren't as bad as people make them out to be. The Boston team and then Lebron's decision to join with Wade and Bosh is what makes those Cavs teams look terrible in comparison. These allegedly bad Cavs teams were still a Top 3 seed lock in the East.
    If you wanted to a see a bad team during that period, check the New York Knicks.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Well, I think they lose Boozer no matter what, so there's that. How on earth were they expecting to keep Boozer with half the money Utah was offering?

    Drafting Al Jefferson instead of Luke Jackson at #10 could have worked out nice for them but their situation was always going to be difficult for various reasons. Their teams from 2006 and on weren't as bad as people make them out to be. The Boston team and then Lebron's decision to join with Wade and Bosh is what makes those Cavs teams look terrible in comparison. These allegedly bad Cavs teams were still a Top 3 seed lock in the East.
    If you wanted to a see a bad team during that period, check the New York Knicks.
    I do agree with you on everything stated. Al Jefferson at the 5 or trading for Iggy(who I think would have been the perfect fit next to Lebron) in that draft class would have been a great fit for them. The Boozer situation was that he was supposed to be a restricted free agent and the Cavs bought the story that he gave them to resign with them if they canceled his contract or wtvr the heck happen there. Me being GM I would have kept his rookie contract and match the offer and have him as a trade asset going forward. Boozer back then was a beast.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Well, I think they lose Boozer no matter what, so there's that. How on earth were they expecting to keep Boozer with half the money Utah was offering?

    Drafting Al Jefferson instead of Luke Jackson at #10 could have worked out nice for them but their situation was always going to be difficult for various reasons. Their teams from 2006 and on weren't as bad as people make them out to be. The Boston team and then Lebron's decision to join with Wade and Bosh is what makes those Cavs teams look terrible in comparison. These allegedly bad Cavs teams were still a Top 3 seed lock in the East.
    If you wanted to a see a bad team during that period, check the New York Knicks.
    Another thing those teams were poorly constructed around Lebron. They managed to be a top team those years inspire of the team that was builded around him. Lebron willed them into those situations

    A starting 5 of
    Ilgauskas
    Boozer
    Lebron
    Iggy
    And a 3 and PG of that time
    Would have been a scary team to face even against the Celtics big 3

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  5. #20
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    What if the (yes another one of those) Cavs were run as a competent franchise

    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    The thread wasnt about keeping Lebron happy. The thread was about the Cavs being run as a competent franchise. Like just imagine if the Cavs were run like the Spurs and made the right moves.
    James would have never stayed like Duncan and would always have forced them to make short sighted moves unlike Duncan. Yes the Spurs are great franchise but it they wouldn’t have been special without a special franchise player


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    Last edited by ewing; 03-23-2020 at 08:04 PM.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    James would have never stayed like Duncan and would always have forced them to make short sighted moves unlike Duncan. Yes the Spurs are great franchise but it they wouldn’t have been special without a special franchise player


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    I can see that you dislike Lebron totally understandable. So let's switch it up then. What if Lebron had that Duncan loyalty. Build a team around him then.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    I can see that you dislike Lebron totally understandable. So let's switch it up then. What if Lebron had that Duncan loyalty. Build a team around him then.
    That is an easy task. You would have a great Franchise. He is a great player


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  8. #23
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    If the Cavs were a competent franchise, Lebron still would not have won a championship with them in his first seven seasons and left for Miami, but he likely would have stayed after he went back. Even had they acquired Amare, or whoever else, in that first Cavs run it still wouldn't have been enough. The team missed the playoffs in his first two seasons, but even if they were a bit better and made it they wouldn't have gotten far.

    Cleveland was never going to win in 2007 against the Spurs. They got swept because Lebron had a bad cast, but a couple pieces (Boozer?) wouldn't have won them the series, a baby LeBron wasn't ever going to beat a prime Duncan-led Spurs team.

    Same thing in 2008 with the Celtics, while it's probably not fair to call Lebron a "baby" four years into his NBA career, he clearly was not the fully realized player we know he ultimately became and the Celtics were comprised of aged, but still in their prime, stars who had never won before. Great teams are better than great players, and 2007 and 2008 really showed that in terms of Lebron's playoff fortunes.

    2009 was a bit of a different story, Lebron put up huge numbers against Orlando averaging 38.5 pts/8 asts/8.3 rebs/game in the ECF, but his team really held him back. Orlando executed a game plan that worked, Cleveland didn't have an answer to Dwight's athleticism underneath the basket and when they brought help it opened up clean 3 point looks from the Magic's supporting cast. Had the Cavs been able to put a better squad or coaching around Lebron they probably would have got to the Finals again in 2009. Beating the Kobe/Gasol Lakers would have been a different story, and the Lakers almost certainly would have won even if the Cavs had another star with Lebron.

    2010 could have been the year a competent Cavs could have broken through and won, but with the Celtics back in the mix and the Lakers as strong as ever it would have been long odds. Boston slept through the regular season and still looked great in the playoffs while the Lakers were getting huge contributions from Ron Artest whom they signed in the past offseason. Lebron was also hurt in the playoffs and that played a big role in them losing.

    There is probably nothing that could have been done that would have won Lebron a championship prior to 2011. There were simply better teams in the league, be it the Spurs/Celtics/Lakers. After his stint in Miami however, when he rejoined Cleveland to play with a blossoming Kyrie and prime Kevin Love, he probably never would have left had they been remotely competent.

    2015 was unlucky in terms of Kyrie/Love missing the Finals against Golden State, but Cleveland's first real mistake was signing their role players to massive contracts after that first year. Tristan Thompson got 5 years/$82 million, JR Smith got 4 years/$57 million, Shumpert got 4 years/$40 million and that is on top of the max extension they gave Love. Lebron was already on a max deal and Kyrie signed the max extension off his rookie contract. They ensured they were going to WAY over the tax for years with little ability to move pieces to keep a good cast around Lebron/Kyrie/Love.

    Yes they won in 2016, but they were unable to add pieces every year the way Miami did with Lebron, and the trade of Kyrie with two years left on his contract was absolutely insane. Not only did they trade him when they had leverage, they traded him for ten cents on the dollar by only getting role players. Imagine if they waited and offered him up to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard? Or how about Porzingis or Chris Paul? There were certainly better trades out there and they had time to do it, they just chose not to. There are so many things Cleveland could have done during Lebron's second stint that would have kept him in Cleveland competing for rings for the rest of his prime.

    Alas, he's better of in LA.

  9. #24
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    So a team coached by
    Mike D'Anthoni
    Tom Thibodeau Lead/Defensive coordinator
    With a starting 5 of

    Ilgauskas
    Boozer
    Lebron
    Iguadola
    Nash

    Wouldn't be enough to get the job done in the east during that time?

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  10. #25
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    If the Cavs were run like a competent organization they still would have driven LeBron off cause his ego couldn't handle not having full control.

  11. #26
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    One thing I gotta admit, Bron wanting to win asap and being so good right off the bat didn't do the Cavs any favors in finding upper echelon draft prospects. Dude barely missed the playoffs by like 1 game as a teen in the NBA. Never suffered a losing season after year 1, that leaves very room for error. Now Cleveland was dumb enough to downgrade a 1st rounder to a second within a span of a few weeks(IIRC) but maybe it they hadn't swung for the fences year after year and instead had a long term plan, they actually get some decent pieces around him.

    One big reason Presti was able to draft 3 MVP's in a row + Ibaka was in part due to KD's relative suckery as a teen/soph (this despite his College exp). Presti began prepping for the KD era by bottoming out and trading the teams vets for future assets. Cleveland traded their youth for vets in an attempts to win asap. And by trying to hoodwink the one guy who couldve been his front court running mate for years. They shouldve just kept Bron at PG where he was clearly struggling and force the team to lose games.


    They got screwed cuz no one came in FA but they could've used their cap space in better ways.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jericho View Post
    So a team coached by
    Mike D'Anthoni
    Tom Thibodeau Lead/Defensive coordinator
    With a starting 5 of

    Ilgauskas
    Boozer
    Lebron
    Iguadola
    Nash

    Wouldn't be enough to get the job done in the east during that time?
    Hindsight is 20/20 about what they should have done in what particular year or circumstance (such them trading up to draft Iggy or hiring D'Antoni/Thibodeau). Considering circumstance at the time, some of what you are suggesting is possible but other parts are practically impossible.

    Keep in mind, Thibodeau was on the Celtics staff when they were beating the Cavs. He was an assistant coach for Jeff Van Gundy basically from 1996-2007 between Van Gundy's stints as head coach of the Knicks and Rockets. From 2007-2010, Thibodeau's role was "associate head coach" of the Celtics before taking the Bulls head coaching job after the 2010 season. For him to join the Cavs it would have to predate his arrival in Boston, but after he left the Rockets in 2007, not likely at all.

    It's possible Cleveland could have scooped up D'Antoni in 2002 before the Suns did, but he wasn't just immediately made head coach. D'Antoni was an assistant for a season before he was hired as head coach of the Suns, and that predates Lebron anyway.

    As for Iggy in 2004, he was regularly mocked to go in the top 5 that year and he fell a little bit down to #9. Cleveland probably could have traded up to get him, but even if they didn't they could have come away with a better pick. Al Jefferson went #15, Josh Smith #17, and Jameer Nelson #20. There were better options for sure.

    Boozer apparently lied to the Cavs front office about his intentions for free agency in 2004 and convinced Cavs management to allow him to become an unrestricted free agent, but that was their own doing and they should have never allowed that.

    Also, how and when would Nash get to Cleveland? He signed a 5 year $65 million contract with the Suns in the summer of 2004, the Cavs had no cap space and couldn't even match Boozer's offer to Utah (6 years, $68 million) after they let him become UFA.

    While bad management made it worse, I do not believe the Cavs would have been able to win a championship in Lebron's first seven seasons. At best he would have two (07, 09), maybe three (possibly 2010 as well) Finals appearances, but I don't believe he would have beat Kobe and the Lakers. Once he returned after his stint in Miami however, good management would have kept him there.
    Last edited by TylerSL; 03-25-2020 at 08:46 AM.

  13. #28
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    That situation isn’t as good as Bosh/Wade. He would have still left. Nothing about Lebron’s history indicates he wouldn’t have left for a better situation if one presented itself. The only time he’s not gone to the best immediate basketball situation was in LA because it was location/market wise where he wanted to be so he went there and then had his agent work back channels to get him a star teammate.


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    That situation isn’t as good as Bosh/Wade. He would have still left. Nothing about Lebron’s history indicates he wouldn’t have left for a better situation if one presented itself. The only time he’s not gone to the best immediate basketball situation was in LA because it was location/market wise where he wanted to be so he went there and then had his agent work back channels to get him a star teammate.
    LA was still loaded on assets, though.

    Even when he came back to Cleveland for his 2nd stint the Cavs had Kyrie and were sitting with the #1 overall pick/Wiggins, which LeBron knew could be traded for immediate all-star talent. And deciding to do the 1+1 year deals while simultaneously demanding that we pay his boys (Tristan, JR, Shump) was crushing and prevented us from changing much. If we don't listen, he could easily bolt after one year - it's difficult to manage around that.

    So departing for LA can easily be seen as going for a fresh opportunity to trade young players and picks for high-end talent.

    All joking aside, LeBron is smart and I don't blame him one bit. He never had a good relationship with Dan Gilbert. We're lucky to have had him when we did, and extremely unlucky to have a bad front office at times. Though for as many flaws as Gilbert has as an owner, I do appreciate his passion.
    The Baker has come. Believe the hype.


  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    That is an easy task. You would have a great Franchise. He is a great player


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    nah. Duncan would've left over something as small as his family traveling on the plane.

    u know the game but u really don't know much about the players

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