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  1. #1
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    Legacy MVP's - Greatest examples of narrative trumping evidence

    Got this idea from the MVP thread, should Bron win it, would it be another example of a legacy MVP? The premise behind a "Legacy MVP" is that you are granted the award for reasons beyond your own level of play. Now narrative has always played a role in MVP selections but Im focusing more on the rationale/story being about rewarding an older player nearing the end of their prime, either for the first time or one final time before they bow out.


    One of the greatest examples of this was back when Kobe won it over the best player on the best team (Championship Celtics with KG) the most productive player on a top-2 seed (CP3) and the games best all-around performer (LeBron on middling Cavs squad). Kobes case was still strong and he had the reputation as the games best, but I cant help but think CP3 being as young as he was and Kobe playing soo long without ever winning one and entering his 30's played a huge role. We mistakenly thought CP3 had plenty of time to eventually earn one.


    A lesser example I've seen referenced was in 1981when Doctor J and Larry Legend were duking it out for MVP in what was sort of a down year for the league in terms of outright dominant MVP candidates. The games best player was Moses Malone but he was toiling away on bad teams, Bird and Doc both led their teams to identical records and Bird wound up winning the title while embarrassing Doc along the way but the idea was Doc was the elderstatesman not likely to reach these highs again while Bird was on the come up and would eventually win like 3 or 4 in a row IIRC.




    Most of the time, these legacy awards are given to guys who have, for one reason or another, never won the award. And since Bron already has 4, it would be more of an MVP to bolster the story of his career and this current season (which is why you have so many media members citing Kobe's death as a valid entree into the argument). It would be a nice crescendo to what is likely Brons last truly MVP caliber season, either now or next year. Im pretty sure he would be the oldest MVP winner in history.




    Before anyone thinks Im ******** on Legacy MVP's, just know that I am actually happy that Julius eventually got an MVP award, he was an important player for the league and got his due historically for it. I hate when I see some guys never win the award, I would've been saddened if Kobe ended his career without one, even tho I technically had CP3 or KG ahead of him, if you're a legacy MVP, chances are you are still an MVP caliber guy so its not absurd. I would be happy if Bron won it, but under most conventional circumstances, like if Bron weren't 35, this is EASILY the Greek Freak's award. Hes having a historic season but because he looks poised to win several more MVP's in the coming years, the novelty of having the player with the most mileage ever, win MVP this far into his career will take precedent.
    Last edited by Chronz; 03-10-2020 at 08:36 PM.

  2. #2
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    Eh there's still, what 20 games left? And the Lakers are 3-4 games behind the Bucks. Let's see how it shakes out. I don't think you can go wrong picking either guy, Lebrons made a strong case regardless of age.

  3. #3
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    I prolly should've made this a list rather than a critique on James today.

  4. #4
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    Are we sure Dr. J was a legacy MVP? I don't know what narratives were going on in the league at that time, and obviously they didn't use advanced statistics back then, but Dr. J led the league in WS/48, BPM and VORP (the last 2 by a lot). He was 3rd in PER but was .4 off the leader, and his team had the best record and the highest SRS in the league. Not to mention the 76ers had defeated Larry Bird and the Celtics the year before in the playoffs pretty handedly (4-1) and even though the vote was before the playoffs, they lost in 7 games to the Celtics that year.

    I don't know if I'd call Dr. J's MVP a legacy MVP. He was clearly deserving.

  5. #5
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    To further your OP, we not only have "Legacy" MVP's, but "Narrative" MVPs. Derrick Rose for example. The MVP award has been given to the wrong guy so many times, that there is no reason to single out a year and fight over it. Shaq has 1 MVP. Cmon. 1??

    The fun exercise would be to state who won a Legacy, or Narrative MVP, which year obviously, and who should have won it.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    To further your OP, we not only have "Legacy" MVP's, but "Narrative" MVPs. Derrick Rose for example. The MVP award has been given to the wrong guy so many times, that there is no reason to single out a year and fight over it. Shaq has 1 MVP. Cmon. 1??

    The fun exercise would be to state who won a Legacy, or Narrative MVP, which year obviously, and who should have won it.
    Well Russell Westbrook's MVP was certainly a narrative MVP, but just looking back on the year, who else was going to win it? James Harden finished second that year but he didn't have a historic season or anything. KD on the Dubs torpedoed his and Steph's chances. Kawhi maybe?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well Russell Westbrook's MVP was certainly a narrative MVP, but just looking back on the year, who else was going to win it? James Harden finished second that year but he didn't have a historic season or anything. KD on the Dubs torpedoed his and Steph's chances. Kawhi maybe?
    Yep, and that would be a good example of a year where there was no lead horse in the race that was obvious. I do think there are plenty of years where the unquestionable best player did not get the MVP, due to a narrative, and those are the years I am referring to really. But how many years do we have a consensus, "he is the best no argument" player?

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  8. #8
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    Just finished the bill Simmons russillo podcast on brons mvp campaign and it's basically bringing up the same points. He even mentioned the chapter in his book I was thinking of while making the thread. Tho he took a different stance at the end, agreeing he would be happy if bron won it.

    He also speaks on how many mvps bron deserves, by his count as a voter, 4.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well Russell Westbrook's MVP was certainly a narrative MVP, but just looking back on the year, who else was going to win it? James Harden finished second that year but he didn't have a historic season or anything. KD on the Dubs torpedoed his and Steph's chances. Kawhi maybe?
    Yes. I've stated this many times but zach Lowe was among the few who weren't swayed by the end of the season histrionics and arbitrary numbers. I'm pretty sure he had a piece o` this
    He also thought dwight was the mvp that rose year. I tend to side with Lowe on most things

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    To further your OP, we not only have "Legacy" MVP's, but "Narrative" MVPs. Derrick Rose for example. The MVP award has been given to the wrong guy so many times, that there is no reason to single out a year and fight over it. Shaq has 1 MVP. Cmon. 1??

    The fun exercise would be to state who won a Legacy, or Narrative MVP, which year obviously, and who should have won it.
    I'll see if I can help pull this off in my docs waiting room

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Are we sure Dr. J was a legacy MVP? I don't know what narratives were going on in the league at that time, and obviously they didn't use advanced statistics back then, but Dr. J led the league in WS/48, BPM and VORP (the last 2 by a lot). He was 3rd in PER but was .4 off the leader, and his team had the best record and the highest SRS in the league. Not to mention the 76ers had defeated Larry Bird and the Celtics the year before in the playoffs pretty handedly (4-1) and even though the vote was before the playoffs, they lost in 7 games to the Celtics that year.

    I don't know if I'd call Dr. J's MVP a legacy MVP. He was clearly deserving.
    I'm not sure on it, was speaking more in terms of what the general buzz was at the time and the trajectory. I would side with your numbers over how doc kind of disappeared in their h2hs

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I'll see if I can help pull this off in my docs waiting room
    Coronavirus?
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Yes. I've stated this many times but zach Lowe was among the few who weren't swayed by the end of the season histrionics and arbitrary numbers. I'm pretty sure he had a piece o` this
    He also thought dwight was the mvp that rose year. I tend to side with Lowe on most things
    I remember reading at the time that a lot of Westbrook's rebounds were empty, and obviously the triple double doesn't look as impressive today as it did at the time. But the flip side of saying a player didn't deserve MVP is figuring out who did that year. I looked and I don't see a slam dunk case for someone over him that year.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    Coronavirus?
    lol, I was in the ER sweating profusely the other day and all the patients in the waiting room looked terrified. twas a simple stomach flu and mad dehydration leading to crazy internal cramps that made me look deadly I suppose

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    lol, I was in the ER sweating profusely the other day and all the patients in the waiting room looked terrified. twas a simple stomach flu and mad dehydration leading to crazy internal cramps that made me look deadly I suppose
    Lmao sounds rough, glad you made it
    <a href=https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7 target=_blank>https://images.app.goo.gl/RaiMUpUeDMoeqDZt7</a>

    8/24/2

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