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  1. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    one of hextall's buried treasures (7th round D kalynuk) just signed with the blackhawks after becoming a free agent.

    not unexpected, but still disappointing. guys like him and vorobyev can be the foundation of a healthy farm system, and it is concerning to see fletcher lose those kinds of talent without appearing to put up much of a fight.
    well we don't know if he didn't put up a fight so lets not just point the finger at him. We have some decent prospects coming in the ahl and we can always sign a veteran to beef up the team. These shouldn't be things we waste time on tbh

  2. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    well we don't know if he didn't put up a fight so lets not just point the finger at him. We have some decent prospects coming in the ahl and we can always sign a veteran to beef up the team. These shouldn't be things we waste time on tbh
    From all indications, we lost a potential bottom 4 dman in the NHL for free that has speed and offense. I agree with Steagles, this one is a loss.

  3. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    well we don't know if he didn't put up a fight so lets not just point the finger at him. We have some decent prospects coming in the ahl and we can always sign a veteran to beef up the team. These shouldn't be things we waste time on tbh
    I'll agree with Iverson here on this one. While we 'may' have been able to get something of value utilizing Kalynuk, He was not going to be a top 6 dman on this team anywhere in the near future with young guns like Myers, Provy, Sanheim, Ghost, York, Zamula, Morin, Hagg, Friedman (the last two probably aren't better but serve a purpose for 7th dmen). I'm going to side with Fletch on this one and say it's okay.

  4. #574
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    well we don't know if he didn't put up a fight so lets not just point the finger at him.
    it's true that we don't know how much effort fletcher put into retaining kalynuk, however, that itself is evidence that it was not a priority for him.
    We have some decent prospects coming in the ahl and we can always sign a veteran to beef up the team. These shouldn't be things we waste time on tbh
    there is no upside to this for the flyers. we just lost an asset of recognized value without receiving any compensation.

    that should not just get handwaved away without meaningful consideration.
    I'll agree with Iverson here on this one. While we 'may' have been able to get something of value utilizing Kalynuk, He was not going to be a top 6 dman on this team anywhere in the near future with young guns like Myers, Provy, Sanheim, Ghost, York, Zamula, Morin, Hagg, Friedman (the last two probably aren't better but serve a purpose for 7th dmen).
    -- injuries happen
    -- quality depth matters
    -- kalynuk's development path is not set in stone. there's no reason to write him off before he turns pro.
    -- we're going to lose (at least*) one of those defensemen to the expansion draft (also: fletcher's mishandling of the NHL's previous expansion draft does not inspire confidence)

    * i say "at least" because a worst case scenario would involve something like trading ghost for pennies on the dollar pre-expansion draft, and then protecting someone like niskanen, which could cause us to lose myers or sanheim (or voracek, if we choose to protect 4 defensemen instead of 3). a slightly less worse case scenario could still result in losing ghost (for pennies via trade), hagg (via draft) and niskanen (via free agency). another worst case scenario is just losing ghost for nothing.

    just to remind people about fletcher's mishandling of the vegas expansion draft: he lost alex tuch, erik haula and a 3rd round pick because his inadequate preparations left him unable to otherwise protect matt dumba.
    I'm going to side with Fletch on this one and say it's okay.
    if that's the conclusion you've drawn, i guess that's fine. i understand that this kind of thing gets deep in the weeds, but the process here raises some red flags.

  5. #575
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    From all indications, we lost a potential bottom 4 dman in the NHL for free that has speed and offense. I agree with Steagles, this one is a loss.
    i don't generally believe in letting little things like this slip; it's one of the reasons why i soured on hextall before anyone else. i saw cracks forming (the earliest warning signs iirc were the gudas extension (an apparent overpay at the time), the weise signing, nick schultz and not pulling the trigger on wayne simmons/brayden schenn/mark streit trades), and i didn't ignore them just because i liked some of the other things he was doing.

    eventually all of the little things that hextall let slip added up to an extent that was no longer acceptable, imo, and that kind of became my "thing" here. but it was never personal; i just thought his philosophy (doing nothing for 363 /365 days each year...a very slight exaggeration, unfortunately) was incompatible with building a winning organization.



    just to put everything out there: personally, my preference for this offseason would be for fletcher to step away from the GM role while retaining the team president role, and then conducting a comprehensive search for a replacement from outside the organization. there are a few caveats to mention: i don't think fletcher is doing a bad job; i don't think the organization is dysfunctional or unstable; i don't think this is necessary for the good of the team; i just think it's the healthiest path for the flyers moving forward. let's get another high quality talent evaluator into the decision making process and trust that having that person work alongside fletcher and vigneault would be better than just relying on the other two.

  6. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    it's true that we don't know how much effort fletcher put into retaining kalynuk, however, that itself is evidence that it was not a priority for him.there is no upside to this for the flyers. we just lost an asset of recognized value without receiving any compensation.

    that should not just get handwaved away without meaningful consideration.

    -- injuries happen
    -- quality depth matters
    -- kalynuk's development path is not set in stone. there's no reason to write him off before he turns pro.
    -- we're going to lose (at least*) one of those defensemen to the expansion draft (also: fletcher's mishandling of the NHL's previous expansion draft does not inspire confidence)

    * i say "at least" because a worst case scenario would involve something like trading ghost for pennies on the dollar pre-expansion draft, and then protecting someone like niskanen, which could cause us to lose myers or sanheim (or voracek, if we choose to protect 4 defensemen instead of 3). a slightly less worse case scenario could still result in losing ghost (for pennies via trade), hagg (via draft) and niskanen (via free agency). another worst case scenario is just losing ghost for nothing.

    just to remind people about fletcher's mishandling of the vegas expansion draft: he lost alex tuch, erik haula and a 3rd round pick because his inadequate preparations left him unable to otherwise protect matt dumba.

    if that's the conclusion you've drawn, i guess that's fine. i understand that this kind of thing gets deep in the weeds, but the process here raises some red flags.
    I just don't believe for a second when the whole hockey world has stopped, Fletcher let it go in a way of saying, "Okay who cares about Kalynuk" or "Oops I forgot all about that guy..." kind of how it seems you are implying. There are ramifications with the total roster and professional roster with Kalynuk deciding to go pro next year. There could have been a million different hypothetical scenarios that occurred here with no way for any of us to know about it.

    Based on his RECENT track record, I am willing to believe something more in line with Fletcher not seeing Kalynuk as a fit or us. I just rattled off 9 defensemen that could all possibly be ahead of Kalynuk on the depth chart and you stated "quality depth" and "injuries happen" as two of your points. Out of those 9 it can be argued that 5 have top pairing potential when on top of their games (Provy, York, Sanheim, Myers, and Ghost when he's really playing right). Zamula even could find a way into this category, but he seems like a solid bottom 4 guy at this point at worst. We likely will have more drafted players in the wings after the coming couple years to take Kalynuk's place.

    The assumption that "we're going to lose (at least*) one of those defensemen to the expansion draft" is an assumption with no basis. I think it is just as likely, or more likely that we lose JVR or Jake to be honest. In response to "(also: fletcher's mishandling of the NHL's previous expansion draft does not inspire confidence)"...I agree with that, but we can only hope that he used that as a learning experience and grew from it, especially since that seemed to be one of the reasons he lost his job there.

    I'm not, as I'm sure Fletcher wasn't, "writing him off before he turns pro". I just believe that the guy decided to go pro and there wasn't a plan or need for him in the team's immediate future. We will see down the road if Kalynuk turns out to be Nick Leddy or just another guy who never reaches the NHL (he was a 7th rounder but probably grades as a 3rd/4th rounder currently). I personally would like us to have some veteran signed for bottom/middle pairing duties.

    lol you know things are crazy when Kalynuk is drawing this kind of discussion!! haha

  7. #577
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    I'll agree with Iverson here on this one. While we 'may' have been able to get something of value utilizing Kalynuk, He was not going to be a top 6 man on this team anywhere in the near future with young guns like Myers, Privy, Sanheim, Ghost, York, Zamula, Morin, Hagg, Friedman (the last two probably aren't better but serve a purpose for 7th men). I'm going to side with Fletch on this one and say it's okay.

  8. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    From all indications, we lost a potential bottom 4 dman in the NHL for free that has speed and offense. I agree with Steagles, this one is a loss.
    its not that big of a loss. If we did keep him I bet he would've never played here. We have 5 main stays on the roster right now. Once niskanen is gone (and possibly ghost), we will have zamula and possibly york. Thats provorov, sanheim, myers, zamula, york. Thats not even counting ghost, freidman, hagg, and ufa signings that are usually done to round out d corps for the bottom pair. Not gunna even fret over this one at all. For all we know, kalynuk didn't want to sign here for that reason or wanted to be in chitown. We can easily get another kalnyuk. I know its not the right way to look at things and letting things go for free is bad...however, it's not the biggest loss.

  9. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    i don't generally believe in letting little things like this slip; it's one of the reasons why i soured on hextall before anyone else. i saw cracks forming (the earliest warning signs iirc were the gudas extension (an apparent overpay at the time), the weise signing, nick schultz and not pulling the trigger on wayne simmons/brayden schenn/mark streit trades), and i didn't ignore them just because i liked some of the other things he was doing.

    eventually all of the little things that hextall let slip added up to an extent that was no longer acceptable, imo, and that kind of became my "thing" here. but it was never personal; i just thought his philosophy (doing nothing for 363 /365 days each year...a very slight exaggeration, unfortunately) was incompatible with building a winning organization.



    just to put everything out there: personally, my preference for this offseason would be for fletcher to step away from the GM role while retaining the team president role, and then conducting a comprehensive search for a replacement from outside the organization. there are a few caveats to mention: i don't think fletcher is doing a bad job; i don't think the organization is dysfunctional or unstable; i don't think this is necessary for the good of the team; i just think it's the healthiest path for the flyers moving forward. let's get another high quality talent evaluator into the decision making process and trust that having that person work alongside fletcher and vigneault would be better than just relying on the other two.
    im not gunna jump the gun before it occurs. I'm actually glad fletcher made those moves with minnesota. It was the first expansion draft in years and a lot of gm's got fleeced. Anaheim got fleeced as well. I think all the gm's have learned from that and will be extra careful going forward. As for letting talent go...sometimes it's just inevitable. Guys like vesey, hayes, other college prospects always end up leaving for boston, nyr, and chicago.

  10. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLMunchie619 View Post
    Out of those 9 it can be argued that 5 have top pairing potential when on top of their games (Provy, York, Sanheim, Myers, and Ghost when he's really playing right). Zamula even could find a way into this category, but he seems like a solid bottom 4 guy at this point at worst. We likely will have more drafted players in the wings after the coming couple years to take Kalynuk's place.

    The assumption that "we're going to lose (at least*) one of those defensemen to the expansion draft" is an assumption with no basis. I think it is just as likely, or more likely that we lose JVR or Jake to be honest. In response to "(also: fletcher's mishandling of the NHL's previous expansion draft does not inspire confidence)"...I agree with that, but we can only hope that he used that as a learning experience and grew from it, especially since that seemed to be one of the reasons he lost his job there.

    lol you know things are crazy when Kalynuk is drawing this kind of discussion!! haha
    100% this. I also like having veterans signed for bottom pairing duties with a young defender. We have the depth as munchies stated. We have guys like zamula, freidman, another wyatt who can just as good (wylie), york, whoever we draft this year, free agents, trades....so for injuries I think we are set. We still have sanheim and myers who can step up in a bigger role if provorov or niskanen get injured. Ghost can hopefully bounce back.

    As for the expansion draft, I think we can all agree that it will go down to JVR, Voracek, or Ghost. I don't think it is set in stone that we will automatically lose a quality defenseman as steagles stated. Only ghost will be the biggest loss and hopefully they figure something out before the draft. They can either trade him at the deadline next year, after the playoffs (before the draft), or cut a deal so that they can take jvr with a pick or something so that they don't take ghost.

    I actually want to keep voracek. I think he can help out our offense more playing anywhere in the top 9. JVR is someone I would love to let go of. His contract may be shorter, but we can use that 7 million in the short term for trades or signing elsewhere. I just think voracek can help more than JVR if we want to contend right now.

  11. #581
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    Any prospect lost with no return is a lose. At least trade them for another minor league player, a draft pick, or even cash. If they spent any time in your minor league system or you used a draft pick to get them you need to get something back, every player has worth. Even if it's not on your team, they can help you get picks or other players.

  12. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by lbz88 View Post
    Any prospect lost with no return is a lose. At least trade them for another minor league player, a draft pick, or even cash. If they spent any time in your minor league system or you used a draft pick to get them you need to get something back, every player has worth. Even if it's not on your team, they can help you get picks or other players.
    In a vacuum, yes...in reality, it's just not cut and dry like that. There are so many factors here that none of us know or are taking into account...

    Was he part of the team's future plans?
    Was there any market for a guy who never stepped foot in the pros yet?
    If there was a market, was anyone willing to offer anything?
    Was there contract space/financial space/roster space on any professional teams?
    Was there a discussion about what would be best for the player?
    Was this a reputation move where the player didn't want to be in Philly and we offered to let him go or something along those lines?
    Was this just a screw up by Fletcher?
    Was this something advised by Scouts/FO personnel?
    What really is the price of rice in China?
    Can a woodchuck really chuck wood?
    Did Lindros ask for this to happen?
    Did Bobby Clarke ask for us to sign Buff instead?
    Do we really want the Flyers to win the cup this year in a year where there probably wouldn't be a parade?

    I mean, the answer to all of these could be "I dont know"

  13. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLMunchie619 View Post
    I'll agree with Iverson here on this one. While we 'may' have been able to get something of value utilizing Kalynuk, He was not going to be a top 6 dman on this team anywhere in the near future with young guns like Myers, Provy, Sanheim, Ghost, York, Zamula, Morin, Hagg, Friedman (the last two probably aren't better but serve a purpose for 7th dmen). I'm going to side with Fletch on this one and say it's okay.
    I liked Kalynuk as much as York at the moment ... York is 2 years away, especially with Covid taking him away from development, and Kalynuk is a better NHL prospect than Hagg, Friedman, and Morin (significantly)

    This is a worse loss than some of you realize. This is a Ghost replacement with 3 years of college experience that could play bottom pair minutes and get Hagg out of the lineup ...

  14. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    I liked Kalynuk as much as York at the moment ... York is 2 years away, especially with Covid taking him away from development, and Kalynuk is a better NHL prospect than Hagg, Friedman, and Morin (significantly)

    This is a worse loss than some of you realize. This is a Ghost replacement with 3 years of college experience that could play bottom pair minutes and get Hagg out of the lineup ...
    i haven't read much about him or watched him but I highly doubt he is a ghost replaacement. He will never score close to 60 or run any of our powerplay units. Most he probably would've been is a bottom pair dman. 23 and put up solid numbers in college but nothing crazy. I guess we will have to wait and see for this one..

  15. #585
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    honestly, I think the hawks are a tough path to the nhl for him too.

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