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  1. #586
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    In a vacuum, yes...in reality, it's just not cut and dry like that. There are so many factors here that none of us know or are taking into account...

    Was he part of the team's future plans?
    Was there any market for a guy who never stepped foot in the pros yet?
    If there was a market, was anyone willing to offer anything?
    Was there contract space/financial space/roster space on any professional teams?
    Was there a discussion about what would be best for the player?
    Was this a reputation move where the player didn't want to be in Philly and we offered to let him go or something along those lines?
    Was this just a screw up by Fletcher?
    Was this something advised by Scouts/FO personnel?
    What really is the price of rice in China?
    Can a woodchuck really chuck wood?
    Did Lindros ask for this to happen?
    Did Bobby Clarke ask for us to sign Buff instead?
    Do we really want the Flyers to win the cup this year in a year where there probably wouldn't be a parade?

    I mean, the answer to all of these could be "I dont know"
    the only meaningful questions that we should use to evaluate this situation are the ones i left in bold.

    everything else is either inconsequential (future plans can change; the market for his services doesn't matter unless the organization was too cheap to get the deal done; philly's reputation doesn't matter because he's had 4 years to make that clear enough for the team to have already unloaded him) or just begging the question (did fletcher screw this up?)

    as for the questions that might matter:
    -- roster space: the organization either knew there was a crunch and ignored it, which is bad. or they didn't know...and that's worse.
    -- best for the player: maybe. but in that case, you have put on your james franklin hat and go sell the crap out of this organization to kid who's on the fence.
    -- advised by scouts/FO personnel to let him go for nothing: whoever gave that advice needs to go register for some economics classes at their local community college this summer.
    -- i could have sworn the flyers made peace with lindros when he played in one of the winter classic alumni games. if that grudge is back on, it would be absolutely disastrous.

  2. #587
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    lol you know things are crazy when Kalynuk is drawing this kind of discussion!! haha
    fwiw, there's some background here that's been bubbling under the surface.

    i expected something like this to happen eventually. it was surprising to me that we were able to sign F laczynski and G sandstrom despite those positions being stocked with as much talent as (and arguably more than) our defense corps.

    after managing to lock those guys down, losing vorobyev and kalynuk in relatively quick succession was...deflating.

  3. #588
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    i could care less about voro lol. Never really liked his game

  4. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    i could care less about voro lol. Never really liked his game
    Voro isnít necessary anymore, same goes for Rubtsov

  5. #590
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    i could care less about voro lol. Never really liked his game
    Voro isnít necessary anymore, same goes for Rubtsov
    GS: "i think this $5 bill is yours"
    YS: "it's not a $20; you can have it"

  6. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    GS: "i think this $5 bill is yours"
    YS: "it's not a $20; you can have it"
    I really think you are looking at this from an "old Flyers" and "mediocrity" point of view. We have our eyes on stronger depth than a possible panning out of a 7th round dman and a center who is probably about 7th or 8th on our depth chart at the position...

  7. #592
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    I really think you are looking at this from an "old Flyers" and "mediocrity" point of view. We have our eyes on stronger depth than a possible panning out of a 7th round dman and a center who is probably about 7th or 8th on our depth chart at the position...
    vorobyev was the phantoms' 4th leading scorer this year, nestled between such luminaries as cal oreilly and kyle criscocola. so, while vorobyev may have been mediocre, he was still better than what's left behind him.

    plus he's still only 22 years old, which means there was plenty of time for him to continue to develop into a reliable (and cheap) bottom 6 option. that may not be as sexy or headline grabbing as a patrick sharp, but guys like that are necessary to keep a team running on all cylinders during an 82 game season where we're going to lose players to injury.


    as for kalynuk, the phantoms D corps was led by nate prosser, tyler wotherspoon and reece wilcox this season. those are not developmental players; they're fringe minor league filler.



    the idea that our developmental system is healthy and robust is not reflected in the reality of their performance this season. rubtsov scored 2 goals in 42 games this year; ratcliffe scored 6 goals in 53 games; NAK had 8 points in 26 AHL games. at the risk of stating the obvious: those numbers are not good.

    (some of the names in this post have been misspelled for effect. good ****ing luck figuring out which ones weren't.)

  8. #593
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    early on in hextall's tenure, he said something something to the effect of "i want to overseason players in the minor leagues". the idea was that players would play 3-5 years in the AHL so they'd be ready to step in and play like veterans when they first get to the NHL.

    i hated that philosophy because it steals years from guys who don't need that kind of snails pace development (like myers, morin, sanheim, hart, konecny, ghost, and so on...). but there is some value to it w/r/t someone like vorobyev. because vorobyev's success is reliant on having a hockey IQ that allows him to play a half-step ahead of everyone else, the additional development time can have a meaningfully positive effect on his performance. to lose him at this point, when the game should be slowing down for him, is a blow. it's not good.

  9. #594
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    This is weird everyone is right. Kinda.

    Wyatt looks the part of an NHL dman to me in the somewhat not distant future. My best guess is an adequate bottom pairing type of guy.

    Vorobyev is a guy I loved for years. He just didn't seem to have it at the NHL level in his brief cup of coffees. I'm not terribly upset about him going home. I don't think he's an NHLer within the next 3 years anyway.

    Neither player looks like an impact player and losing one or both won't be the reason the flyers win or don't win the cup by 2025. It's an acceptable loss, but as steagles points out, it is worrisome. The flyers defensive depth is NOT very deep at the pro level, or at the NHL ready level heading into next season and beyond. Death by a thousand papercuts is a real thing. If assets keep leaving for nothing, it will eventually put the flyers behind other teams.


    Sidenote on Vorobyev. I don't remember the exact terms of the trade, but earlier this season he was traded in Russia. It was a 2 for 1 deal, however the piece going with him appeared to be a 4th line PKer. Meanwhile the 1 in the 2 for 1 was a productive scoring forward. I believed back the Vorobyev had already decided to return to Russia and the acquiring team knew this. Otherwise, on paper, the trade didn't make sense. I believed that then, and him announcing it now doesn't surprise me in the least.
    "2008 WORLD ****ING CHAMPIONS"

  10. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    vorobyev was the phantoms' 4th leading scorer this year, nestled between such luminaries as cal oreilly and kyle criscocola. so, while vorobyev may have been mediocre, he was still better than what's left behind him.

    plus he's still only 22 years old, which means there was plenty of time for him to continue to develop into a reliable (and cheap) bottom 6 option. that may not be as sexy or headline grabbing as a patrick sharp, but guys like that are necessary to keep a team running on all cylinders during an 82 game season where we're going to lose players to injury.


    as for kalynuk, the phantoms D corps was led by nate prosser, tyler wotherspoon and reece wilcox this season. those are not developmental players; they're fringe minor league filler.



    the idea that our developmental system is healthy and robust is not reflected in the reality of their performance this season. rubtsov scored 2 goals in 42 games this year; ratcliffe scored 6 goals in 53 games; NAK had 8 points in 26 AHL games. at the risk of stating the obvious: those numbers are not good.

    (some of the names in this post have been misspelled for effect. good ****ing luck figuring out which ones weren't.)
    we still have york, wyat wyllie, zamula..so we good there

    we can easily draft a better player than voro and sign someone as well. Voro was NEVER (in my opinion) going to be a mainstay on our roster. He was given chances and failed to develop chemistry. We have frost coming in, patrick and lindblom coming back, allison, ratcliffe, laczynksi and cates who are centers and players I think will be better in that bottom 6 role.. we are more than fine. We can always sign ahl vets to boost the phantoms. I think you are looking at how we handled prospects and players in the past too often. We are at a point in our team where we have the luxury to not worry about losing a player like voro. Before, it was a bigger loss as our farm was always relatively weak. Our main team is stacked now and we have reinforcements coming. If seattle can take jvr or voracek we will then have some space to sign another player to fill a role we need.

  11. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    early on in hextall's tenure, he said something something to the effect of "i want to overseason players in the minor leagues". the idea was that players would play 3-5 years in the AHL so they'd be ready to step in and play like veterans when they first get to the NHL.

    i hated that philosophy because it steals years from guys who don't need that kind of snails pace development (like myers, morin, sanheim, hart, konecny, ghost, and so on...). but there is some value to it w/r/t someone like vorobyev. because vorobyev's success is reliant on having a hockey IQ that allows him to play a half-step ahead of everyone else, the additional development time can have a meaningfully positive effect on his performance. to lose him at this point, when the game should be slowing down for him, is a blow. it's not good.
    I think voro needed to be put in a very specific role to be successful in the nhl. Unfortunately, we don't have the role available and won't for some time. Our top 3 centers are set for the next couple years..

  12. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    If assets keep leaving for nothing, it will eventually put the flyers behind other teams.
    I agree with this (as steagles points out). If we lost allison too it would've hurt that we lost 3 decent prospects. However, we lost 2 guys that are behind quite a few players. I'm glad we kept allison though. I think we can easily replace kalnyyk and voro via the draft this year. Wylie, I think can be similar to kalynuk, and cates/lazysinki i think can play their roles in the bottom 6 better. Lets not lose anymore though lol but no neeed to be overly upset over this.

  13. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3iverson3 View Post
    I agree with this (as steagles points out). If we lost allison too it would've hurt that we lost 3 decent prospects. However, we lost 2 guys that are behind quite a few players. I'm glad we kept allison though. I think we can easily replace kalnyyk and voro via the draft this year. Wylie, I think can be similar to kalynuk, and cates/lazysinki i think can play their roles in the bottom 6 better. Lets not lose anymore though lol but no neeed to be overly upset over this.
    I think I agree with this and what tx said up there. Steagles, I'm with you brother, it's just not that big of a "OMG what are we doing" deal here. My point is, it does not hurt us in the immediate future (next 3 years). Now if Kal turns out to be Kimmo Timonen in a couple years, it looks really bad. Odds are the guy doesn't make a noticeable ripple in the NHL. My belief is Fletcher is looking at this...

    Current Roster for 2021...

    G - Couts - TK
    Lindblom - Hayes - Jake
    JVR - Patrick - Farabee
    Raffl - Laughton - Frost
    Other Extra Forwards -- Linus Sandin, Wade Allison, Laczynski, Kase

    Provy-Nisky
    Sanheim-Myers
    Ghost-Hagg
    Extra Dmen -- Morin, York, Zamula, Wylie, Friedman, Hogberg (I think Hog is underrated)

    Outside of G, Jake, Raffl, JVR, and Nisky, that team is on the right side of 30. On defense, everyone else is under 25 except Ghost!

    Fletcher is likely going to keep together most of these young guys and bring in a few veterans to fill out the team and/or have as extras (see Nate Thompson, Derek Grant, etc.). There is going to be no place for any 'developmental' players with aspirations of being in the NHL probably in the next 3 years or so on the defensive side of things. There is also not currently a market for a young defenseman drafted in the 7th round who has literally proven nothing yet. Again, there are ample possibilities with the kid and it would have been nice to keep him, but I don't see this as a "OMG bad" scenario right now, especially not knowing any details of why we let him go.

  14. #599
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    Fletcher is likely going to keep together most of these young guys and bring in a few veterans to fill out the team and/or have as extras (see Nate Thompson, Derek Grant, etc.). There is going to be no place for any 'developmental' players with aspirations of being in the NHL probably in the next 3 years or so on the defensive side of things. There is also not currently a market for a young defenseman drafted in the 7th round who has literally proven nothing yet.
    1: injuries happen and our depth of talent is questionable. losing kalynuk may not hurt, but it definitely does not help (in the words of blaise pascal, as bastardized by dave mustaine: "if i'm right, i lose nothing. if you're right, i lose it all").
    2: only one of the defensemen you listed played for the phantoms last year. that means there's a spot for kalynuk to take.
    2B: and we know that vorobyev was better than most of the other prospects who spent last year on the phantoms.
    3: playing in the NHL is the final stage of development. there may not appear to be a spot for him now, but 2 years from now, that may change. or, given the opportunity, he may force it to change.
    Again, there are ample possibilities with the kid and it would have been nice to keep him, but I don't see this as a "OMG bad" scenario right now, especially not knowing any details of why we let him go.
    this is an "OMG bad process" situation. that's not quite on the same level, but it's a warning sign.

    it may turn out to be inconsequential, but unless vorobyev machetes 6 of his russian teammates so he can eat their still beating hearts so as to gain their strength, there's no upside for the flyers here. they cannot be made better by these losses.

  15. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    I liked Kalynuk as much as York at the moment ... York is 2 years away, especially with Covid taking him away from development, and Kalynuk is a better NHL prospect than Hagg, Friedman, and Morin (significantly)

    This is a worse loss than some of you realize. This is a Ghost replacement with 3 years of college experience that could play bottom pair minutes and get Hagg out of the lineup ...
    Ok, you are out of your mind then. Kalynuk was a good depth prospect with a chance of developing into a bottom pairing defender, but let's not over exaggerate the significance of this loss.

    The reality it that as deep as the Flyers are at the bottom of the roster that Kalynuk likely saw the writing on the wall and signed with an organization where there was a better opportunity to play his way on to the roster.

    This doesn't mean that Fletcher doesn't deserve any blame because he absolutely deserves plenty of blame. As GM he has to realize the reality of the situation and at the very least trade his rights for a draft pick much in the same way Hextall was able to get a pick for Marody with nowhere for Marody to crack his way on to the roster.

    It's a loss yes, but let's lay the blame at the feet of the man who is at fault and let's not make Kalynuk out to be something he isn't.

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