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  1. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by northsider View Post
    You know I was never highly critical on Maddon, but my god man he in my head almost blew GM 7 (if not for the teams own perseverance).

    Hendricks was ****ing cruising. Then an absolutely HORRIFIC job of calling balls and strikes led to 1 damn walk to Santana and this was when Hendricks was still sub 70 pitches and had two outs in the inning. He was dialed in and Joe went right to Lester who then proceeded to put us on skates.

    I get it we won, but being able to rewatch and see this with the hindsight now makes me even more critical. That was an absolutely terrible in game managing call that almost cost us a WS.

    He buckled to how the Indians were being managed (their BP was their strength) and almost mimic'd under pressure what they were doing.

    Easy to say now, but he leaves Hendricks in and he prob gets next batter out on a roll over (almost all Indians hitters contact was trash against him that day) and then cruises to give us 7 lock down innings. He was the one guy when he was dialed in and you saw he was only throwing 10-15 pitches an inning you leave him the **** in. Kyle is damn near cold blooded and you could see it in his eyes he had that look. Honestly it's the one time I expected to see him finally blow his composure and go ape ****, but him not doing so just shows you that dude has ice in his veins at all time he doesn't lose his cool.
    The reason Hendricks got pulled has been explained before, but yeah, he really didn't start cruising till around the 3rd/4th inning. He was getting hit pretty hard before that and gave up a run. Somewhere in this time frame, Joe started warming up Lester, and by the time the 5th inning came around, Lester needed to get in the game so as to stay fresh because he'd been warming up too long. After the ******** walk, it was Kipnis up, and Lester would have come in the next inning anyway, so yeah, he made the switch to get the better matchup (which it was). Other than that crazy wild pitch that allowed 2 runs to score, Lester was great. I honestly don't have a lot of problem with how Joe managed the game. Chapman was obviously drained, but Joe's hands were tied from being down 1-3 in the series and he had set it up so that he would've only needed 4 outs from him. Not his fault the offense chose until the last two games in the series to show up. If I had a complaint, he should've probably not used Chapman in game 6 at all, or at the very least, had someone warming up inbetween innings so he didn't need to run him back out there to start the 9th after the Rizzo homer added the insurance runs.

    Anyway, to most it appears like Joe just got outmanaged by Tito, but again, I think most of that is out of his control. The Indians had a very strong and deep bullpen, the Cubs had Chapman and guys you could kiiiinda depend on in Montgomery and Carl Edwards. It's easy to manage a bullpen when your bullpen is very good. It's easy to look dumb when your bullpen isn't very good. The Cubs had a better team than the Indians for sure, but the Cubs weakest area on the roster is also the area that's gonna bring a lot of criticisms on the manager. Ultimately, you can't blame him for not having a good bullpen. For Francona, the opposite was true. He had a damaged roster and rotation and got to look like a genius for being aggressive with his bullpen. However, for that to work, he also needed a very deep/strong bullpen, which he did.
    Last edited by La_bibbers; 03-25-2020 at 01:05 PM.

  2. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubsRule08 View Post
    Noah Syndergaard diagnosed with torn UCL, expected to have TJ Surgery in next couple days
    Crazy how this normally wouldn’t be a problem but now we live in a world where performing TJ Surgery right now is controversial. Elective surgery all around the country has been shut down indefinitely. A week ago the Florida governor where the surgery is being performed signed an executive order that barred nonessential elective surgery to be performed right now.

  3. #828
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    The reason Hendricks got pulled has been explained before, but yeah, he really didn't start cruising till around the 3rd/4th inning. He was getting hit pretty hard before that and gave up a run. Somewhere in this time frame, Joe started warming up Lester, and by the time the 5th inning came around, Lester needed to get in the game so as to stay fresh because he'd been warming up too long. After the ******** walk, it was Kipnis up, and Lester would have come in the next inning anyway, so yeah, he made the switch to get the better matchup (which it was). Other than that crazy wild pitch that allowed 2 runs to score, Lester was great. I honestly don't have a lot of problem with how Joe managed the game. Chapman was obviously drained, but Joe's hands were tied from being down 1-3 in the series and he had set it up so that he would've only needed 4 outs from him. Not his fault the offense chose until the last two games in the series to show up. If I had a complaint, he should've probably not used Chapman in game 6 at all, or at the very least, had someone warming up inbetween innings so he didn't need to run him back out there to start the 9th after the Rizzo homer added the insurance runs.

    Anyway, to most it appears like Joe just got outmanaged by Tito, but again, I think most of that is out of his control. The Indians had a very strong and deep bullpen, the Cubs had Chapman and guys you could kiiiinda depend on in Montgomery and Carl Edwards. It's easy to manage a bullpen when your bullpen is very good. It's easy to look dumb when your bullpen isn't very good. The Cubs had a better team than the Indians for sure, but the Cubs weakest area on the roster is also the area that's gonna bring a lot of criticisms on the manager. Ultimately, you can't blame him for not having a good bullpen. For Francona, the opposite was true. He had a damaged roster and rotation and got to look like a genius for being aggressive with his bullpen. However, for that to work, he also needed a very deep/strong bullpen, which he did.
    Completely disagree with any remote rationale explanation on this one. Kipnis vs. a Hendricks who was at that point keyed in would have been my choice 100000x over Lester to come in during that situation. This is the final game and you are there to get out of each inning and not the factor of, oh well Lester is already warmed up so lets not waste it. He absolutely was shaky and that is why there is a difference between high leverage pitchers and starting pitchers as it is not an easy task and you are tuned to pitch differently. The most pitches he threw in any inning was 21 all other innings were like 10 pitchers.

    Sorry re-watching it this time and how he was pitching he was not getting hit hard I literally just watched the game. Joe was worked as a manager and allowed how the Indians facilitated their BP become how we did. Henricks also is someone where to me if you watched that 5th inning you were actually afraid he would not get out?? We aren't talking a pitcher who looked like he was losing it at all. He had it and was dialed in and is the type of guy who easily shakes off that walk knowing it was not truly a walk.

    My take Hendricks being pulled was 10000000x wrong and if the reason he was pulled was cause we didn't want to waste Lester for warming up it just shows Joe was way to trigger happy and perhaps he shouldn't have jumped gun on who was warming up at that point. Lester is a guy I'd start an inning with and not who I wanted to come in when the situation was tense.

    Long story short Joe mismanaged the **** out of GM 7 and it almost cost us which also ties to how he mismanaged GM 6 using Chapman for absolutely no reason.
    Last edited by northsider; 03-25-2020 at 02:20 PM.

  4. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by northsider View Post
    Completely disagree with any remote rationale explanation on this one. Kipnis vs. a Hendricks who was at that point keyed in would have been my choice 100000x over Lester to come in during that situation. This is the final game and you are there to get out of each inning and not the factor of, oh well Lester is already warmed up so lets not waste it. He absolutely was shaky and that is why there is a difference between high leverage pitchers and starting pitchers as it is not an easy task and you are tuned to pitch differently. The most pitches he threw in any inning was 21 all other innings were like 10 pitchers.

    Sorry re-watching it this time and how he was pitching he was not getting hit hard I literally just watched the game. Joe was worked as a manager and allowed how the Indians facilitated their BP become how we did. Henricks also is someone where to me if you watched that 5th inning you were actually afraid he would not get out?? We aren't talking a pitcher who looked like he was losing it at all. He had it and was dialed in and is the type of guy who easily shakes off that walk knowing it was not truly a walk.

    My take Hendricks being pulled was 10000000x wrong and if the reason he was pulled was cause we didn't want to waste Lester for warming up it just shows Joe was way to trigger happy and perhaps he shouldn't have jumped gun on who was warming up at that point. Lester is a guy I'd start an inning with and not who I wanted to come in when the situation was tense.

    Long story short Joe mismanaged the **** out of GM 7 and it almost cost us which also ties to how he mismanaged GM 6 using Chapman for absolutely no reason.
    I've watched the game a thousand times myself Watch the first 2 or 3 innings, Hendricks was definitely getting hit well. I also don't get how you disagree about Lester. He forced a swinging bunt that Ross uncharacteristically threw into the stands, then the next play let a passed ball score two runs. Other than that, Lester was great and sharp his entire outing.

    I don't think it matters what Hendricks was doing that inning, or his last 4 or 5 batters faced. Historically, Hendricks is a guy who reallly doesn't fare well the 3rd and 4th times into the order.

    For his career:
    ERA 1st time through order: 2.94
    ERA 2nd time through order: 2.40
    ERA 3rd time through order: 4.72

    2016:
    FIP 1st time through order: 2.76
    FIP 2nd time through order: 3.22
    FIP 3rd time through order: 3.79

    That 3.79 FIP doesn't look bad now, and it wasn't really exactly bad then either, but keep in mind how much the average FIP has jumped up since then to put things into perspective. It's a full expected run higher than his 1st time through. If Lester was going to come into the game at all, which he needed to, putting him to face that part of the lineup was the right move. It's Joe's job to try and anticipate when the best time to pull his pitcher is, not wait until he starts to struggle. You don't have to be satisfied with any of this, but you can't ignore it either. Joe's moves have plenty of objective logic behind them.
    Last edited by La_bibbers; 03-25-2020 at 02:37 PM.

  5. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    I've watched the game a thousand times myself Watch the first 2 or 3 innings, Hendricks was definitely getting hit well. I also don't get how you disagree about Lester. He forced a swinging bunt that Ross uncharacteristically threw into the stands, then the next play let a passed ball score two runs. Other than that, Lester was great and sharp his entire outing.

    I don't think it matters what Hendricks was doing that inning, or his last 4 or 5 batters faced. Historically, Hendricks is a guy who reallly doesn't fare well the 3rd and 4th times into the order.

    For his career:
    ERA 1st time through order: 2.94
    ERA 2nd time through order: 2.40
    ERA 3rd time through order: 4.72

    2016:
    FIP 1st time through order: 2.76
    FIP 2nd time through order: 3.22
    FIP 3rd time through order: 3.79

    That 3.79 FIP doesn't look bad now, and it wasn't really exactly bad then either, but keep in mind how much the average FIP has jumped up since then to put things into perspective. It's a full expected run higher than his 1st time through. If Lester was going to come into the game at all, which he needed to, putting him to face that part of the lineup was the right move. It's Joe's job to try and anticipate when the best time to pull his pitcher is, not wait until he starts to struggle.
    Agreed. My only major complaint was the way Chapman was used in game 6.

  6. #831
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Agreed. My only major complaint was the way Chapman was used in game 6.
    This a million times!

  7. #832
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    2020 Cubs Spring Training Thread

    My take is that if David Ross wasn’t 38 years old and didn’t move like an actual Grandpa, the wild pitch off his face mask doesn’t plate 2 runs. If Kyle Hendricks stayed in the game and gave up a couple of runs and then Chapman came in and gave up 3 runs and Cleveland took the lead, maybe we don’t fight back because David Ross never would have been in a position to come into the game and hit a HR. If Willson Contreras stayed in to catch Lester, the pitch that led to wild pitch probably doesn’t happen the way it did. There are so many “what if’s” about that game that at the end of the day the Cubs won the way they did and as good as that team was in 2016, they had the best possible manager they could have in 2016.

  8. #833
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    https://twitter.com/craigmish/status...803540484?s=21


    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


    El Mago

  9. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    I've watched the game a thousand times myself Watch the first 2 or 3 innings, Hendricks was definitely getting hit well. I also don't get how you disagree about Lester. He forced a swinging bunt that Ross uncharacteristically threw into the stands, then the next play let a passed ball score two runs. Other than that, Lester was great and sharp his entire outing.

    I don't think it matters what Hendricks was doing that inning, or his last 4 or 5 batters faced. Historically, Hendricks is a guy who reallly doesn't fare well the 3rd and 4th times into the order.

    For his career:
    ERA 1st time through order: 2.94
    ERA 2nd time through order: 2.40
    ERA 3rd time through order: 4.72

    2016:
    FIP 1st time through order: 2.76
    FIP 2nd time through order: 3.22
    FIP 3rd time through order: 3.79

    That 3.79 FIP doesn't look bad now, and it wasn't really exactly bad then either, but keep in mind how much the average FIP has jumped up since then to put things into perspective. It's a full expected run higher than his 1st time through. If Lester was going to come into the game at all, which he needed to, putting him to face that part of the lineup was the right move. It's Joe's job to try and anticipate when the best time to pull his pitcher is, not wait until he starts to struggle. You don't have to be satisfied with any of this, but you can't ignore it either. Joe's moves have plenty of objective logic behind them.
    Again I stand by what I saw was Hendricks was absolutely in control. Putting in Lester was a knee jerk wrong move. Hendricks being pulled was stupid he was the guy who should have finished the inning and prob. goes on to finish the next 2 as well. This is only compounded by the absolute brain fart of game 6 using Chapman which had a direct effect on his management in this game which again was directed by the Indians style of play instead of our own.

  10. #835
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Agreed. My only major complaint was the way Chapman was used in game 6.
    Yep. Other than that, Joe managed everything just fine. He was handcuffed by the 1-3 deficit and by his limited bullpen options. The decision to pull Hendricks, even neglecting the claim that Lester needed to enter the game when he did (which might be true, might be false), it was a 50/50 decision. In general, I can't stand fans overreacting to those moves, or acting like they're as trivial as they are.

  11. #836
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    It’s often forgotten because it happened just after Chapman blew up and how it all ended, but Baez bunting on a 3-2 pitch with a runner on third was bad. Really bad. Especially considering how abused relievers were knocked around throughout this game.

  12. #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubboy View Post
    It’s often forgotten because it happened just after Chapman blew up and how it all ended, but Baez bunting on a 3-2 pitch with a runner on third was bad. Really bad. Especially considering how abused relievers were knocked around throughout this game.
    I'll disagree with that too. Javy's a really good bunter and at the time, wasn't at all what he is now. He was facing Bryan Shaw, whose a guy that's tailor made to get guys like Javy out with his plus/hard slider. I actually liked the decision to try the squeeze even though it didn't work out.

  13. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by northsider View Post
    Again I stand by what I saw was Hendricks was absolutely in control. Putting in Lester was a knee jerk wrong move. Hendricks being pulled was stupid he was the guy who should have finished the inning and prob. goes on to finish the next 2 as well. This is only compounded by the absolute brain fart of game 6 using Chapman which had a direct effect on his management in this game which again was directed by the Indians style of play instead of our own.
    I don't care if Hendricks was in control. We have no idea how long that would've lasted, but history told us, not much longer. Facts are facts. I think Joe's thinking was Kyle gets two times through the order no matter what, then Lester is the bridge to Chapman. If things really break down, he had Monty and Edwards available. I think it was a good plan.

    I don't disagree the way he used Chapman was great, but again, he was in a really bad position. I'm not too sure which I'd rather he have done either between not using Chapman in game 6 until he had to, or just using him to get out of the 7th inning jam then pulling him. The latter is interesting, but once you pull him, he's gone for good. On the other hand, do I really love the idea of waiting for Chapman to be needed for a more high stress situation given he'd just come off of a 43 pitch outing? Not really. It was kind of a lose-lose-lose situation.

    People really don't look at the context enough. The offense was awful all series and again, Joe didn't exactly have a plethora of other guys he could call on to reliably get guys out. It's so easy to just act like Joe choked or he was a moron or whatever, but the reality is it was much more complicated than that.

  14. #839
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    2020 Cubs Spring Training Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dfan25 View Post
    https://twitter.com/craigmish/status...803540484?s=21


    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
    There is really nothing wrong with MLB just having a 100 game regular season if Baseball comes back in June which would cut off 60-70 games anyway. Playing a 140-150 regular season in a timeframe where there would typically only be 100 games left on the schedule is tiring. I get playing regular season games in October is an option but playing postseason games throughout November in icy cold weather doesn’t sound comfortable at all.

    It will be interesting what will happen with the Cubs London series. Maybe postpone it for next year because if sport does return to London by June, they could be played without fans and if that’s the case there wouldn’t be a point to the series being played in London.
    Last edited by JHBulls; 03-25-2020 at 05:32 PM.

  15. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    I don't care if Hendricks was in control. We have no idea how long that would've lasted, but history told us, not much longer. Facts are facts. I think Joe's thinking was Kyle gets two times through the order no matter what, then Lester is the bridge to Chapman. If things really break down, he had Monty and Edwards available. I think it was a good plan.

    I don't disagree the way he used Chapman was great, but again, he was in a really bad position. I'm not too sure which I'd rather he have done either between not using Chapman in game 6 until he had to, or just using him to get out of the 7th inning jam then pulling him. The latter is interesting, but once you pull him, he's gone for good. On the other hand, do I really love the idea of waiting for Chapman to be needed for a more high stress situation given he'd just come off of a 43 pitch outing? Not really. It was kind of a lose-lose-lose situation.

    People really don't look at the context enough. The offense was awful all series and again, Joe didn't exactly have a plethora of other guys he could call on to reliably get guys out. It's so easy to just act like Joe choked or he was a moron or whatever, but the reality is it was much more complicated than that.
    I guess that is where we disagree as I do care he was in control as that is what I saw. I mean a little context was to me was just the fact of getting that 5-1 lead allowed him to go to a comfort zone instead of perhaps pitching out of character and I felt like he was demonstrating that.

    I mean all of this is for nothing as we went on to win and Joe is no longer the manager. At the end of the day I think it was a horrible decision as Hendricks with a 5-1 lead at sub 70 pitchers and going on cruise control is who I want to ride with a little longer then just one walk that he was squeezed on. He wasn't just squeezed either he threw a breaking pitch that wasn't even questionable strike 3 on Santana that should have ended inning.

    I am fine not agreeing on this one as again I was about as non-critical of Joe as anyone. However in that moment I still stand by it being a bone headed call by Joe.

    Luckily we don't have to play the what if game for this one we were on the right side of an epic win.
    Last edited by northsider; 03-25-2020 at 06:05 PM.

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