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  1. #1681
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    MLB to release schedule today at 5 pm CT.

    MLB Network will have coverage of the reveal

    2016 World Series Champions!!!


  2. #1682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman85 View Post
    Heís ok, dependable enough MORP, but Iím pretty sure most of us hoped for more. I thought he could flirt with the top of the rotation or at least high end MORP. Plus we payed a premium for him, I get he was cost controlled , but still we could/should have done better with trade pieces like jiminez and cease.

    TBH Theo hasnít been great lately in trades or FA...he did a great job early accumulating talent tho. Off the top of my head worst THEO trades/ FAs/draft pics.

    -Chapman trade is debatable, still I didnít like it. Should have been more prepared In the pen before the season
    - Jhey sighing...pretty bad. I did like the signing at the time tho.
    - Q trade definitely wasnít good, should have gotten better for high end prospects.
    - Soler for wade Davis...ehh I was always a soler fan. Maybe if we didnít waste money on Jhey, we could have spent money on r bullpen and used soler in RF?
    - Lester signing is regarded as one of theoís best signings...but still could have done a lot better if we signed max scherzer for not that much more money. I like r rotation a lot better if we had mad max vs Lester.
    - not trading Addison Russell when he had a lot of value...hard to blame him for that one tho.
    Chatwood signing...didnít like the signing right away...hereís to hoping he gets hot and helps us this year.

    Poor drafting after the first round especially with pitching.

    Didnít Theo trade DJ for nothing to the Rockies? Lol

    Theoís big wins for me r, Rizzo trade/cheap contract, Contreras, KB draft pick, Arrieta trade, Hendricks trade, Schwarber pick was prettty solid, Vic C draft pick looks good right now. Zobrist sign was solid. Fowler trade and 1 yr contract was very good. Hoerner looks like a good pick, Happ looks like a decent pick.

    Overall, I guess Theo has done well, bc no FO is perfect...and we did win a WS...but tbh great GMs in a big market should be perennial contenders. Iím not sure we can keep that up the next few years, bc of his recent mistakes in FA/trades. Sadly the FO hasnít been very good lately. Theo is looking more n more average as a FO guy to me.
    Go back and re-read your post for a moment. Count up how many times you added a qualifier of "it was fine at the time" or "hard to blame him". Then, read your last sentence, where you...you know...blame him for all of those things. How as he, at the time supposed to know most of these things? You blame him for things that are entirely hindsight. Consistently. It's asinine. So let's break it down.

    Quintana: Fair value at the time. People don't seem to understand what Quintana was when the Cubs traded for him. He was not a stud in the "one game" sense. He was cheap, controlled, and durable. He was a guy who got a lot of his value from his durability. He takes the mound every 5th day. He doesn't spend time on the IL. And the Cubs generally got that. Maybe he's a little worse than what you'd have wanted, but there was nothing to suggest that would occur. On top of that, people consistently over value what Eloy Jimenez looks to be at this juncture, as with Cease.

    Chapman: They won a W.S. I don't see how this debatable. What's debatable is if they're even in game 7 without him. I'd suggest they aren't. I get that having Torres now would be awesome. And maybe we win a W.S. without Chapman. And another with Torres. But a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Let's take the W.S. we have, and enjoy it. We're watching right now how fickle a season can be.

    Heyward: What in his profile suggested this occuring? Yeah, I get it, it's been a bummer. But he was healthy. He was a top-50 hitter most seasons. He was a GG player. People can whine about it being an overpay for a glove-first RF-er, but no one saw this. No one. And anyone who did is a liar. Other teams wanted Heyward too. He turned down some amazingly lucrative deals. From good organizations.

    Soler for Davis: Soler is a DH. Do the Cubs have a DH yet? They kind of do this year, but they didn't last year. They don't next year. He's also hurt all the time. Why does anyone care about that trade? Soler doesn't help the Cubs because they barely have his position as a thing.

    You're complaining that they signed Lester over Scherzer? Are you serious? Do you not remember that offseason and how everyone laughed at Scherzer wanting $200m, that he had arm problem history, and that he had to wait until deep into the winter to get a deal? Again you complain about hindsight. I mean, yeah a crystal ball would make Theo Epstein a better VP of baseball, but it'd make me one, too. It's great you have hindsight but come on. That's inane. The Cubs got a great SP who's lived up to every penny of his deal, and you want to nitpick using hindsight on a contract that at the time was quite shakey?

    Poor post-1st round drafting? The Cubs best prospect is a 2nd round draft pick. Do you know how unlikely it is outside of round 1 to get an MLB player? I just searched a random draft. 2010. TWO players outside of the 1st or the supplemental round made ASG appearances. Two. Realmuto and Dickerson. That's it.

    Yes, Lemahiue was dealt under Theo Epstein. No, I don't care. He's had had two seasons in his career above 2.1 fWAR (and three right around 2. Making him an acceptable, but nothing more, starting player). Big deal. He was a low end prospect they took a flier on Ian Stewart with. He's carved out a fine career for himself, but he's not a stud. I expect last year will be an outlier and you'll get normal, 2 fWAR DJ Lemahiue again next year. This is in no way an impressive player. He's fine. I also don't care the Cubs dumped him.

    Epstein is not perfect. Sure, some of these things look worse when applied with hindsight. Yeah Chatwood was a mistake. He jumped the market. Yeah, the Quintana trade probably could have gone better at the time even (while Quintana was fair-ish value, perhaps there was more out there, a better "one game" guy). And yeah, some of these things bit him in the *** eventually (though not a lot was there to suggest they would, just bad luck). But the Cubs have literally had their best run of baseball in a century and won a W.S. under Epstein. He's done better than average. And some of these major losses (last year people were claiming Darvish to be one of the worst contracts in baseball and in Cubs history) has a real chance to be a relative steal.

    I'm tired of this narrative that somehow Epstein should have known about Heyward and Quintana, or been a visionary and went with Scherzer over Lester. He has not been perfect. He can't be. But he's also been great. He's a great guy to run your team. For all of the great things Freidman has done, for example, in LA, with a bigger budget and the prospects and the trades...remember...he doesn't have a W.S. Epstein does. And while part of that is good luck, it can't be ignored. I'd much rather have the Cubs run since 2011 than the Dodgers. It shocks me to my baseball core when I see this stuff. The Cubs have one of the top-5 (and probably top-3) guys running their team and fans throw pissy fits and call the guy average. You know what average is? Jim Hendry. Jim Hendry was average. What the Cubs did under Hendry was average. People are so quick to forget the Jim Hendry times. It's complacency and it's shiny new toy syndrome. Everyone wants the shiny new toy. But the toy we have still is one of the absolute best. The new toy? Almost assuredly would be a down grade.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 07-06-2020 at 10:05 AM.

  3. #1683
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    That's also a big thing I go back to on the Q trade, I refuse to believe that the best return the Cubs could have gotten for Eloy Jimenez and Dylan cease at the time was Jose Quintana...two top prospects (one of them being a top 5 prospect in the game) should net more than that, even with Q's contract IMO.

    Zero issue with the Chapman trade and Lester signing. I put those two on the positive side for Theo and Jed.

    Also, speaking of turds, I wonder how much Theo and Jed regret not going harder after Verlander in 2017?

    That still has to sting.
    Last edited by Cubs420; 07-06-2020 at 10:32 AM.

  4. #1684
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    2016 World Series Champions!!!


  5. #1685
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs420 View Post
    I wonder how much Theo and Jed regret not going harder after Verlander in 2017?

    That still has to sting.
    I doubt they even think of that. There's plenty of "almost" trades. And at the time, there was a strong argument to make against Verlander. He was showing major flags of slowing down and had a lot of money attached to him still. He turned it all around. Credit to Verlander.

    But for every "we almost traded for Verlander" there's an equal side of the coin. The Cubs were a potential destination for Prince Fielder, for example, in 2012. We ended up with Rizzo. That would have stung. There are lots of decisions as a GM you'll probably wish you'd have gone with, with new information. Others you wish you wouldn't have, with new information. But I doubt they think of it any more, I doubt it stings them to this day. I would imagine they have thicker skin than to be pouting in 2020 about a maybe move from 2017.

    I also think you highly under estimate how much value Quintana had during that trade. The guy was under 30, under a cheap, cheap contract, for years, was incredibly durable, and was exactly what the Cubs needed: a very strong, durable, dependable SP who could slot in as a low #2/high #3. I know everyone wants the "one game" guy, and perhaps Q's value isn't as that, but he was a very strong "long haul, long season" guy. That's what they bought. And for the years left on his deal, that's not a bad way to go about it.

    I also suspect they, and other teams, were well aware of Jimenez's defensive liabilities. They're paid to know that. I think we have to take the little number BA or ESPN gives Mr. Jiminez as a prospect and throw it to the side a bit. These defensive issues didn't just come out of no where.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 07-06-2020 at 10:36 AM.

  6. #1686
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    People are gonna forget about his tenure here because the Cubs didn't have a deep playoff run with him, but I feel the Cole Hamels trade should be mentioned among Theo's best.

  7. #1687
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    People are gonna forget about his tenure here because the Cubs didn't have a deep playoff run with him, but I feel the Cole Hamels trade should be mentioned among Theo's best.
    Bingo. He got what ended up being one of the Cubs best arms at the time for literally nothing.

  8. #1688
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Bingo. He got what ended up being one of the Cubs best arms at the time for literally nothing.
    If he'd stayed healthy last year, I think it'd have gone a long way. Rotation got really worn out and he was having one of his best years before the injury.

    Castellanos was a great rental too.

  9. #1689
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    They actually have been good at the short term, low risk, low cost pickups the last three seasons. Castelanos, Hamel, Chavez. The longer term, higher priced pickups, not so much. And then thereís the farm.
    And I am pretty sure Hoyer admitted regret in the Cubs not going harder after Verlander in an interview at the end of last season. Which means Theo has regrets because I canít recall Hoyer having an original thought, like ever.

  10. #1690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubboy View Post
    They actually have been good at the short term, low risk, low cost pickups the last three seasons. Castelanos, Hamel, Chavez. The longer term, higher priced pickups, not so much. And then thereís the farm.
    And I am pretty sure Hoyer admitted regret in the Cubs not going harder after Verlander in an interview at the end of last season. Which means Theo has regrets because I canít recall Hoyer having an original thought, like ever.
    Who were they gonna trade for Verlander at the time exactly to match Houston's offer? It was a lot of money to pick up for a 35 year old pitcher who seemed to have his best days behind him. The Cubs also already had Lester, Quintana, Hendricks, and Arrieta in the rotation. So they could've traded for Verlander but would it really have made a huge difference that year? Then there's the prospects Houston gave up. It wasn't anything amazing for Verlander, but the Cubs basically traded the farm when they got Quintana & Justin Wilson. They would've had to have moved Schwarber, Russell, or Javi basically to match Houston's deal centered around Franklin Perez and Daz Cameron, the former who would become a top 100 prospect after the year.

    In hindsight, sure you'd have moved Addi in a second. At the time? He was a controlled 23 year old WS hero coming off a 3 WAR season.
    Last edited by La_bibbers; 07-06-2020 at 11:17 AM.

  11. #1691
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    Nm.
    Last edited by Bluefire; 07-06-2020 at 11:21 AM.
    Screw sabermetics.

  12. #1692
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_bibbers View Post
    Who were they gonna trade for Verlander at the time exactly to match Houston's offer? It was a lot of money to pick up for a 35 year old pitcher who seemed to have his best days behind him. The Cubs also already had Lester, Quintana, Hendricks, and Arrieta in the rotation. So they could've traded for Verlander but would it really have made a huge difference that year? Then there's the prospects Houston gave up. It wasn't anything amazing for Verlander, but the Cubs basically traded the farm when they got Quintana & Justin Wilson. They would've had to have moved Schwarber, Russell, or Javi basically to match Houston's deal centered around Franklin Perez and Daz Cameron, the latter who would become a top 100 prospect after the year.
    Yep. The Quintana deal should be looked at with an even wider lens.
    And yes, they did indeed trade the farm for Quintana.

  13. #1693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubboy View Post
    Yep. The Quintana deal should be looked at with an even wider lens.
    And yes, they did indeed trade the farm for Quintana.
    "Trade the farm" is an overexaggeration.
    Screw sabermetics.

  14. #1694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubboy View Post
    Yep. The Quintana deal should be looked at with an even wider lens.
    And yes, they did indeed trade the farm for Quintana.
    What do you mean a wider lens? Quintana was just the better fit for the Cubs than Verlander, and projected to be a better pitcher over 3 years than Verlander. It's really a Darvish versus Verlander conversation that we're having here, because in all likelihood if we trade for Verlander, we don't sign Darvish.

    People also forget that the Cubs were 43-45 when the Cubs traded for Q (and he was awesome for us that half-season). That trade wasn't just about 2017, but the following 3 seasons of control as well. There were legitimate doubts about the Cubs' odds to even make the playoffs that year. Verlander was a win now acquisition. In Houston's eyes, I'm sure they would've been happy if Verlander gave them good performance through that postseason and then just stayed competent the following two seasons. You can't just compare the two like they were the same type of player to acquire.

  15. #1695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluefire View Post
    "Trade the farm" is an overexaggeration.
    They traded Eloy (top 10 prospect at the time) and Cease (top 30 prospect at the time). In what way is it an over-exaggeration? The Cubs did trade their farm in the Quintana & Justin Wilson trades. Name prospects in the Cubs farm system on the day of the Justin Verlander trade as good as the prospects that the Astros gave up for him.

    The Cubs could've matched without the Wilson+Avila trade, but again, hindsight is 20/20. Contreras was hurt and Avila filled in great, and we desperately needed a high leverage lefty at the time more than probably anything else.

    They needed those players much more than they needed Justin Verlander or Jake Arrieta to be their 5th starter.

    A year later, Theo traded for Hamels for pennies when short-term SP did become a huge need.
    Last edited by La_bibbers; 07-06-2020 at 11:31 AM.

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