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  1. #1291
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Thanks. The whole conversation is so frustrating. Year after year after year we are told the owners are the risk takers and that means they should benefit the way they do when times are good. Then for the first time in generations the industry faces a year of economic hardship and those same ďrisk takersĒ canít take a loss? The players need to subsidize the loss? Nope. You know in a couple years when times are good again and payrolls are lower than they are today people will point to this season as the risk of ownership that justifies them reducing player salaries. The owners have not negotiated in good faith at any point. They basically repurposed the same offer for months while running down the clock to get the 50-60ish game season they always wanted.

    I hate the ďmillionaires vs billionairesĒ thing too. For one, a pretty significant percentage of players are not millionaires and some owners arenít billionaires, but why are people acting like those numbers are close to the same thing? A million is to a billion like a thousand is to a million. If you received a dollar every second 24/7, youíd get a million every 11-12 days. It would take almost 32 years to get a billion. A million seconds ago it was June 2nd. A billion seconds ago a lot of people on this board werenít alive yet.

    I understand that most people donít have a million dollars, but itís crazy how many people act like these numbers are the same.
    lol. Quite honestly, it is frustrating. So many of you talk about owners as if they were "individuals". I really don't understand why you do that. Maybe if you think of them as individuals it's easier for you to vilify them? The oh gee, this Bill Gates level person can afford it. Why shouldn't they throw more and more money at high school educated folks to appease them for any and everything they want? lol.

    Actually, I agree with you about a lot of this. The concept of billionaires in principle is sickening and isn't something that is good for society. Honestly, individuals with funds like that should be taxed out of existence, but thatís an argument for a different setting.

    Sure, for a lot of the teams, the "owner" might be one name, but for most of these owners what you're really talking about are organizations that are worth multiple billions supporting them from the background with a number of joint investors. To run a MLB baseball team you'd need sufficient cash flow to make additional investments into their teams - something that's usually beyond just an individual. For the vast majority of the MLB teams - just like the teams abroad - they are being supported and funded by corporations. If you think corporations - you should be thinking people. A LOT of people. Aside from all the people in player and development, marketing, HR, folks setting up and negotiating contracts for services, goods, travel arrangements, people involved in projections to understand the business flow and to develop models about growth, etc - i.e. the people involved in the day to day management of the organization - you also have other people involved more tangentially in all the other associated business that enabled the team to be bought initially.

    Consequently, you should be thinking about a ton of people doing a 9-5 grind every day. Talented people. Smart people. People that aren't billionaires, or millionaires. Yet, you'd rather see the players get paid even more from the allocation of the profits - i.e. how so many of these folks are getting paid a salary - and how these corporations have money to invest/reinvest in their other businesses. lol. Okay.

    And for what? These multi-millionaire employees, while skilled, get paid a pittance anywhere else in the world (Yes, the market is different. I've noted that repeatedly. Nonetheless, these high school educated folks are so escaped from reality on what they believe their value is. Playing baseball is literally all that most of the folks are capable of - rags to riches). I would LOVE to see MLB on strike for 5 years. To watch these people adjust to the reality of the world - to go live abroad and play elsewhere and see what it's really like. I wonder how many of them actually go back to school to get a degree. Again, lol. Look at this pay disparity - https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/25/espn...0the%20league.. Itís sickening.

    If the MLB player's associations really cared for the players (please keep in mind that the vast majority of professional baseball players are not at the MLB level, but rather are in the minors), then they would have a greater emphasis on the quality of life of these folks in the minors. Instead, they cater to the elite players. The real people that are getting hurt by this situation are the folks in the minors. If you think the player's association is looking after their best interest then you're kidding yourselves. Between the two, the owners have more at stake than the player's associations because that's their investment on future employees. That's what their farm systems are. An investment. In an ideal world, they could trim the fat, all these excessive wages, and reinvest it to develop a better product.

    CubsRule suggests that the owners don't care about developing players or investing in them, and he acts like it's some gotcha surprise that the owners want to make cuts to Milb. If the owners are at the point that they want to cancel a significant chunk of their season, especially when operating Milb is a complete loss - they do not make money doing this, then of course they're looking to make additional cuts. They cannot put fans in the stands/cannot make money with contracts with vendors. That's a HUGE chunk of their revenue. They were already operating at a loss even with fans at the Milb. Guess what happens without fans - they lose even more money with their investment in the minors.

    Why should the owners "take a loss" with corona? It's unclear how, if at all, a vaccine will ever be ready. This could go on for years. All these teams should then take the loss for their multi-millionaire players' benefit?

    Additionally, sure, the market is larger, but why should the pay be exponentially more when their skills aren't exponentially better than players elsewhere in the world (admittedly, they are better - but not to the degree and difference in their salary). It's absurd then that these multi-millionaires believe they have some kind of leverage. You have only 1 league in the world willing to pay you anywhere near what you're getting paid, and yet these are their complaints. It's really kind of funny. If you want to capitulate to a bunch of high school educated prima donas, then go for it. Itís not my cup of tea.
    Last edited by Crusader; 06-14-2020 at 04:36 PM.
    Ü

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  2. #1292
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Addison, IL
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    24,279

    2020 MLB Thread (Covid shutdown Edition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    lol. Quite honestly, it is frustrating. So many of you talk about owners as if they were "individuals". I really don't understand why you do that. Maybe if you think of them as individuals it's easier for you to vilify them? The oh gee, this Bill Gates level person can afford it. Why shouldn't they throw more and more money at high school educated folks to appease them for any and everything they want? lol.

    Actually, I agree with you about a lot of this. The concept of billionaires in principle is sickening and isn't something that is good for society. Honestly, individuals with funds like that should be taxed out of existence, but thatís an argument for a different setting.

    Sure, for a lot of the teams, the "owner" might be one name, but for most of these owners what you're really talking about are organizations that are worth multiple billions supporting them from the background with a number of joint investors. To run a MLB baseball team you'd need sufficient cash flow to make additional investments into their teams - something that's usually beyond just an individual. For the vast majority of the MLB teams - just like the teams abroad - they are being supported and funded by corporations. If you think corporations - you should be thinking people. A LOT of people. Aside from all the people in player and development, marketing, HR, folks setting up and negotiating contracts for services, goods, travel arrangements, people involved in projections to understand the business flow and to develop models about growth, etc - i.e. the people involved in the day to day management of the organization - you also have other people involved more tangentially in all the other associated business that enabled the team to be bought initially.

    Consequently, you should be thinking about a ton of people doing a 9-5 grind every day. Talented people. Smart people. People that aren't billionaires, or millionaires. Yet, you'd rather see the players get paid even more from the allocation of the profits - i.e. how so many of these folks are getting paid a salary - and how these corporations have money to invest/reinvest in their other businesses. lol. Okay.

    And for what? These multi-millionaire employees, while skilled, get paid a pittance anywhere else in the world (Yes, the market is different. I've noted that repeatedly. Nonetheless, these high school educated folks are so escaped from reality on what they believe their value is. Playing baseball is literally all that most of the folks are capable of - rags to riches). I would LOVE to see MLB on strike for 5 years. To watch these people adjust to the reality of the world - to go live abroad and play elsewhere and see what it's really like. I wonder how many of them actually go back to school to get a degree. Again, lol. Look at this pay disparity - https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/25/espn...0the%20league.. Itís sickening.

    If the MLB player's associations really cared for the players (please keep in mind that the vast majority of professional baseball players are not at the MLB level, but rather are in the minors), then they would have a greater emphasis on the quality of life of these folks in the minors. Instead, they cater to the elite players. The real people that are getting hurt by this situation are the folks in the minors. If you think the player's association is looking after their best interest then you're kidding yourselves. Between the two, the owners have more at stake than the player's associations because that's their investment on future employees. That's what their farm systems are. An investment. In an ideal world, they could trim the fat, all these excessive wages, and reinvest it to develop a better product.

    CubsRule suggests that the owners don't care about developing players or investing in them, and he acts like it's some gotcha surprise that the owners want to make cuts to Milb. If the owners are at the point that they want to cancel a significant chunk of their season, especially when operating Milb is a complete loss - they do not make money doing this, then of course they're looking to make additional cuts. They cannot put fans in the stands/cannot make money with contracts with vendors. That's a HUGE chunk of their revenue. They were already operating at a loss even with fans at the Milb. Guess what happens without fans - they lose even more money with their investment in the minors.

    Why should the owners "take a loss" with corona? It's unclear how, if at all, a vaccine will ever be ready. This could go on for years. All these teams should then take the loss for their multi-millionaire players' benefit?

    Additionally, sure, the market is larger, but why should the pay be exponentially more when their skills aren't exponentially better than players elsewhere in the world (admittedly, they are better - but not to the degree and difference in their salary). It's absurd then that these multi-millionaires believe they have some kind of leverage. You have only 1 league in the world willing to pay you anywhere near what you're getting paid, and yet these are their complaints. It's really kind of funny. If you want to capitulate to a bunch of high school educated prima donas, then go for it. Itís not my cup of tea.
    FYI: before you try to twist my words around (like you clearly have already), this whole talk about cutting 42 minor league teams was already in talks after last season, way before COVID-19 hit. So yeah, the owners are ****ing greedy and stupid.


    To be honest, for you to think that the players are in the wrong out of all this after already agreeing to cuts in March, only for the owners to say ďweíre poor and canít pay youĒ when theyíre ****ing billionaires, is a joke. So in your words: if you want to capitulate to a bunch of greedy billionaires who donít seem to care about baseball, then go for it. Itís not my cup of tea.

    2016 World Series Champions!!!


  3. #1293
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    12,160

    2020 MLB Thread (Covid shutdown Edition)

    So much of this is utter nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    lol. Quite honestly, it is frustrating. So many of you talk about owners as if they were "individuals". I really don't understand why you do that. Maybe if you think of them as individuals it's easier for you to vilify them? The oh gee, this Bill Gates level person can afford it. Why shouldn't they throw more and more money at high school educated folks to appease them for any and everything they want? lol.
    I donít give a rats *** if itís family ownership or corporate ownership. The owners of these teams benefit greatly from their investment. That investment comes with ďrisk.Ē They arenít guaranteed profits each year. It has nothing to do with individual ownership vs corporate ownership. I can vilify a corporation every bit as easily as an individual. I think itís really insulting that you keep trying to insult the players as ďhigh school educated.Ē We donít insult Steve Jobs as being ďhigh school educated.Ē We donít insult Richard Branson by calling him a ďhigh school drop out.Ē These players are the absolute peak of their profession in the entire world and they generate $10-11 billion in annual revenues for MLB. They are geniuses in their industry. No humanties degree is going to make them any smarter in their industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    Actually, I agree with you about a lot of this. The concept of billionaires in principle is sickening and isn't something that is good for society. Honestly, individuals with funds like that should be taxed out of existence, but thatís an argument for a different setting.
    Cool. Yep. Tax the hell out of them. Tax the hell out of players over $1 million, too. Totally a different topic, but Iím glad we agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    Sure, for a lot of the teams, the "owner" might be one name, but for most of these owners what you're really talking about are organizations that are worth multiple billions supporting them from the background with a number of joint investors. To run a MLB baseball team you'd need sufficient cash flow to make additional investments into their teams - something that's usually beyond just an individual. For the vast majority of the MLB teams - just like the teams abroad - they are being supported and funded by corporations. If you think corporations - you should be thinking people. A LOT of people. Aside from all the people in player and development, marketing, HR, folks setting up and negotiating contracts for services, goods, travel arrangements, people involved in projections to understand the business flow and to develop models about growth, etc - i.e. the people involved in the day to day management of the organization - you also have other people involved more tangentially in all the other associated business that enabled the team to be bought initially.
    Donít care if itís 1 name or 1000. These teams have cash flow. Many of them choose to invest that cash flow in real estate or media companies or hotels or other investments that will drive ďnon-baseball revenuesĒ back to themselves. The players shouldnít be bailing out ownerships personal investments. The owners legal counsel was also just quoted saying owners arenít interested in salary deferrals because they could just borrow at very low interest rates now anyway, so if any of them have cash flow issues, they can always borrow like business owners across the country have been doing. Obviously the organization includes more than players. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. The point is that players are seeing smaller and smaller shares of the revenues they are creating despite league revenues exploding and now thereís a tough year and the players are being asked to eat the losses while owners refuse to even provide the documents players requested about revenues and expenses. Youíd have to be a total sucker to trust owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    Consequently, you should be thinking about a ton of people doing a 9-5 grind every day. Talented people. Smart people. People that aren't billionaires, or millionaires. Yet, you'd rather see the players get paid even more from the allocation of the profits - i.e. how so many of these folks are getting paid a salary - and how these corporations have money to invest/reinvest in their other businesses. lol. Okay.

    And for what? These multi-millionaire employees, while skilled, get paid a pittance anywhere else in the world (Yes, the market is different. I've noted that repeatedly. Nonetheless, these high school educated folks are so escaped from reality on what they believe their value is. Playing baseball is literally all that most of the folks are capable of - rags to riches). I would LOVE to see MLB on strike for 5 years. To watch these people adjust to the reality of the world - to go live abroad and play elsewhere and see what it's really like. I wonder how many of them actually go back to school to get a degree. Again, lol. Look at this pay disparity - https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/25/espn...0the%20league.. Itís sickening.
    Itís not the players job to pay the 9-5 workers. Itís not up to the millionaire employees to pay the thousandaire employees so the billionaire business owners can avoid a loss.

    The fact that youíd love to see mlb on strike for 5 years is idiotic. The fact that you think the players need the owners more than the reverse is 100% wrong. If mlb were to cease to exist all these owners lose billion dollar assets. They canít generate that wealth without the best players. The players are the product. You arenít bringing in KBO players and scabs and keeping your revenues. If mlb lost its antitrust exemption and a rival league popped up with all the best players in the world like mlb, it would quickly generate billions in revenues. The players are the product, the owners are not.

    The pay disparity is because of the revenue disparity and the mlbpa. KBO isnít pulling $11 billion in revenues annually. Itís not complicated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    If the MLB player's associations really cared for the players (please keep in mind that the vast majority of professional baseball players are not at the MLB level, but rather are in the minors), then they would have a greater emphasis on the quality of life of these folks in the minors. Instead, they cater to the elite players. The real people that are getting hurt by this situation are the folks in the minors. If you think the player's association is looking after their best interest then you're kidding yourselves. Between the two, the owners have more at stake than the player's associations because that's their investment on future employees. That's what their farm systems are. An investment. In an ideal world, they could trim the fat, all these excessive wages, and reinvest it to develop a better product.

    CubsRule suggests that the owners don't care about developing players or investing in them, and he acts like it's some gotcha surprise that the owners want to make cuts to Milb. If the owners are at the point that they want to cancel a significant chunk of their season, especially when operating Milb is a complete loss - they do not make money doing this, then of course they're looking to make additional cuts. They cannot put fans in the stands/cannot make money with contracts with vendors. That's a HUGE chunk of their revenue. They were already operating at a loss even with fans at the Milb. Guess what happens without fans - they lose even more money with their investment in the minors.
    Minor leaguers are not in the union. I think it would be great if minor leaguers unionized, but itís not reasonable to expect mlb players to protect the rights of non-union members in negotiations. The fact that owners have taken every opportunity to **** over milb players is only a reflection on owners, not players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    Why should the owners "take a loss" with corona? It's unclear how, if at all, a vaccine will ever be ready. This could go on for years. All these teams should then take the loss for their multi-millionaire players' benefit?
    Because they are happy to take the wins. They have signed contracts with players. Itís not the contracted employees job to subsidize the owners risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    Additionally, sure, the market is larger, but why should the pay be exponentially more when their skills aren't exponentially better than players elsewhere in the world (admittedly, they are better - but not to the degree and difference in their salary). It's absurd then that these multi-millionaires believe they have some kind of leverage. You have only 1 league in the world willing to pay you anywhere near what you're getting paid, and yet these are their complaints. It's really kind of funny. If you want to capitulate to a bunch of high school educated prima donas, then go for it. Itís not my cup of tea.
    Because the market is larger! And yes, their skills are 100% exponentially better than players elsewhere in the world. Itís not remotely close. Itís besides the point though. The players get paid so much more here because they generate so much more here. You arenít generating that revenue with scabs. The fact that you keep acting like the owners are paying them out of generosity shows how far away you are from getting it.
    Last edited by CP_414; 06-14-2020 at 05:54 PM.

  4. #1294
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    Bloomington, IL
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    So much of this is utter nonsense.



    I donít give a rats *** if itís family ownership or corporate ownership. The owners of these teams benefit greatly from their investment. That investment comes with ďrisk.Ē They arenít guaranteed profits each year. It has nothing to do with individual ownership vs corporate ownership. I can vilify a corporation every bit as easily as an individual. I think itís really insulting that you keep trying to insult the players as ďhigh school educated.Ē We donít insult Steve Jobs as being ďhigh school educated.Ē We donít insult Richard Branson by calling him a ďhigh school drop out.Ē These players are the absolute peak of their profession in the entire world and they generate $10-11 billion in annual revenues for MLB. They are geniuses in their industry. No humanties degree is going to make them any smarter in their industry.



    Cool. Yep. Tax the hell out of them. Tax the hell out of players over $1 million, too. Totally a different topic, but Iím glad we agree.




    Donít care if itís 1 name or 1000. These teams have cash flow. Many of them choose to invest that cash flow in real estate or media companies or hotels or other investments that will drive ďnon-baseball revenuesĒ back to themselves. The players shouldnít be bailing out ownerships personal investments. The owners legal counsel was also just quoted saying owners arenít interested in salary deferrals because they could just borrow at very low interest rates now anyway, so if any of them have cash flow issues, they can always borrow like business owners across the country have been doing. Obviously the organization includes more than players. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. The point is that players are seeing smaller and smaller shares of the revenues they are creating despite league revenues exploding and now thereís a tough year and the players are being asked to eat the losses while owners refuse to even provide the documents players requested about revenues and expenses. Youíd have to be a total sucker to trust owners.



    Itís not the players job to pay the 9-5 workers. Itís not up to the millionaire employees to pay the thousandaire employees so the billionaire business owners can avoid a loss.

    The fact that youíd love to see mlb on strike for 5 years is idiotic. The fact that you think the players need the owners more than the reverse is 100% wrong. If mlb were to cease to exist all these owners lose billion dollar assets. They canít generate that wealth without the best players. The players are the product. You arenít bringing in KBO players and scabs and keeping your revenues. If mlb lost its antitrust exemption and a rival league popped up with all the best players in the world like mlb, it would quickly generate billions in revenues. The players are the product, the owners are not.

    The pay disparity is because of the revenue disparity and the mlbpa. KBO isnít pulling $11 billion in revenues annually. Itís not complicated.




    Minor leaguers are not in the union. I think it would be great if minor leaguers unionized, but itís not reasonable to expect mlb players to protect the rights of non-union members in negotiations. The fact that owners have taken every opportunity to **** over milb players is only a reflection on owners, not players.



    Because they are happy to take the wins. They have signed contracts with players. Itís not the contracted employees job to subsidize the owners risk.



    Because the market is larger! And yes, their skills are 100% exponentially better than players elsewhere in the world. Itís not remotely close. Itís besides the point though. The players get paid so much more here because they generate so much more here. You arenít generating that revenue with scabs. The fact that you keep acting like the owners are paying them out of generosity shows how far away you are from getting it.

  5. #1295
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    So much of this is utter nonsense.
    It really is. Complete and utter nonsense

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    I donít give a rats *** if itís family ownership or corporate ownership. The owners of these teams benefit greatly from their investment. That investment comes with ďrisk.Ē They arenít guaranteed profits each year. It has nothing to do with individual ownership vs corporate ownership. I can vilify a corporation every bit as easily as an individual. I think itís really insulting that you keep trying to insult the players as ďhigh school educated.Ē We donít insult Steve Jobs as being ďhigh school educated.Ē We donít insult Richard Branson by calling him a ďhigh school drop out.Ē These players are the absolute peak of their profession in the entire world and they generate $10-11 billion in annual revenues for MLB. They are geniuses in their industry. No humanties degree is going to make them any smarter in their industry.
    lol. If you want to equate athleticism to intelligence/genius then be my guest, but it's silly. I think it's insulting for you to keep trying to insult owners, as if they were all people/groups with unlimited funds that only need to shell out the bill. The reason we don't insult Steve Jobs or Richard Branson is because they had intelligence. They had options. They would have been extremely successful in other fields. Tell me, in what field or what world is Carlos Zambrano a multi-millionaire doing anything else? A lot of these people are limited to playing baseball. That's all they can do. If you want to pretend they are all multi-millionaires or successful business men doing other things, well good luck with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Cool. Yep. Tax the hell out of them. Tax the hell out of players over $1 million, too. Totally a different topic, but Iím glad we agree.
    Glad you agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Donít care if itís 1 name or 1000. These teams have cash flow. Many of them choose to invest that cash flow in real estate or media companies or hotels or other investments that will drive ďnon-baseball revenuesĒ back to themselves. The players shouldnít be bailing out ownerships personal investments. The owners legal counsel was also just quoted saying owners arenít interested in salary deferrals because they could just borrow at very low interest rates now anyway, so if any of them have cash flow issues, they can always borrow like business owners across the country have been doing. Obviously the organization includes more than players. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. The point is that players are seeing smaller and smaller shares of the revenues they are creating despite league revenues exploding and now thereís a tough year and the players are being asked to eat the losses while owners refuse to even provide the documents players requested about revenues and expenses. Youíd have to be a total sucker to trust owners.
    You realize that loans have to be paid back, right? That's why it's a ... loan? This isn't monopoly money. If the owners didn't care and had absolutely unlimited resources we wouldn't be going through all of this, would we? They'd simply throw money at them, which is apparently what you're advocating for. I don't trust the owners. We know what their incentive is. However, at least they are providing people with jobs. If you don't think corona is throwing a monkey wrench in everything and introducing all sorts of scary risks, then you're not paying attention to what is going on. This is a once in a life time situation. There's never been a situation like this in our life time, and god willing not in the foreseeable future. Why should we potentially ruin businesses that employee a ton of employees - so that multi-millionaire baseball players get to make more money?

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Itís not the players job to pay the 9-5 workers. Itís not up to the millionaire employees to pay the thousandaire employees so the billionaire business owners can avoid a loss.
    See. This is absolutely the saddest part of your response. It's not strictly billionaires vs. millionaires. The organizations have employees. People's livelihoods depend on this. People who have rents. People who work hard. People who struggle to pay their bills. Real people are affected. You'd love to pretend is just people with unlimited money vs people with slightly less but basically unlimited money, but who are also geniuses because they are athletic. lol. You think I care about a billionaire's bottom line? I couldn't care less. What I care about are the people that are actually likely to feel the pinch.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    The fact that youíd love to see mlb on strike for 5 years is idiotic. The fact that you think the players need the owners more than the reverse is 100% wrong. If mlb were to cease to exist all these owners lose billion dollar assets. They canít generate that wealth without the best players. The players are the product. You arenít bringing in KBO players and scabs and keeping your revenues. If mlb lost its antitrust exemption and a rival league popped up with all the best players in the world like mlb, it would quickly generate billions in revenues. The players are the product, the owners are not.
    Maybe it is silly. But tell me this, for all your years of fandom, for all the money you invested into the Cubs - Is it not true that you still supported them? Even when our team was absolute dog crap? I seem to remember your name years back still rooting for this team when they were absolute trash. Maybe we're different fans. I'd support the Cubs even if we had crap players. I'd support the team even if we lost. I like the Cubs not because of any individual player. I like it because of the tradition and because ... it's the Cubs. You could fire the entire team, replace them with KBO players, and I'd still support the Cubs.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    The pay disparity is because of the revenue disparity and the mlbpa. KBO isnít pulling $11 billion in revenues annually. Itís not complicated.
    It's really not complicated. They get paid because fans invest more, and advertisers pay more to reach those fans investing. I've noted this numerous times. I think you actually understand this. What you're trying to ignore is the fundamental fairness that I'm pointing out. Why should 2 players get paid drastically different amounts? Why should one of those players get paid an amount that others with "real" jobs could never earn? Why should the other, who is still very skilled, but not quite at the other players level get paid an unlivable wage - where they need to take on a second job? It's a reflective question on fairness. It's like how you talk about owners with monopoly money.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Minor leaguers are not in the union. I think it would be great if minor leaguers unionized, but itís not reasonable to expect mlb players to protect the rights of non-union members in negotiations. The fact that owners have taken every opportunity to **** over milb players is only a reflection on owners, not players.
    You're the one saying that the players are geniuses and they're apparently doing all this for a good reason. This is my point. These multi-millionaire players are selfish (Yes, individual owners are selfish too. It's not a nonprofit, but this goes both ways). In contrast, players don't have employees (or certainly not the number of employees). They have waaaay less responsibility. Their excessive pay leaves less money for everyone else hoping to get in the industry. It's the classic Republican argument. I have money, and I should keep my money, and I don't want to use my money so that other people could also have a chance at earning more money because then there's less for me. Additionally, now that leagues around the world are improving, guess what - owners are less willing to invest in players because they no longer have to foot the bill to train them. If player's average salaries were smaller - such that foreign players had less incentive to come to MLB for exponentially more money - then owners have an additional incentive to invest again in Milb in order to replenish the stock.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Because they are happy to take the wins. They have signed contracts with players. Itís not the contracted employees job to subsidize the owners risk.
    They are. At least they are providing jobs. I wish we could tax the hell out of both groups, so that their average employees could live a better life - and so Milb could live a better life.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Because the market is larger! And yes, their skills are 100% exponentially better than players elsewhere in the world. Itís not remotely close. Itís besides the point though. The players get paid so much more here because they generate so much more here. You arenít generating that revenue with scabs. The fact that you keep acting like the owners are paying them out of generosity shows how far away you are from getting it.
    MLB players are better players. However, they are not exponentially better - not to the degree one player gets paid $850,000 and the other gets paid $20,000. One is a multi-millionaire. The other works a second job to put food on table. Have you spent much time actually watching these other leagues? I get up routinely and watch KBO games at 3am. You see handful of players on each team that could have the ability to play MLB, yet the pay disparity is striking. The world keeps getting better. We lose frequently on the world stage in the World Baseball Classic. The fact that you're a Chicago Cubs fan and you're going to argue to me that fans won't support the team regardless of the quality of the player shows how far away you are from getting it. I feel like we of all people would know what truly makes fandom. If we wanted to root for the Yankees and unlimited funds, we had that option.
    Last edited by Crusader; 06-14-2020 at 08:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    MLB players are better players. However, they are not exponentially better - not to the degree one player gets paid $850,000 and the other gets paid $20,000. One is a multi-millionaire. The other works a second job to put food on table. Have you spent much time actually watching these other leagues? I get up routinely and watch KBO games at 3am. You see handful of players on each team that could have the ability to play MLB, yet the pay disparity is striking. The world keeps getting better. We lose frequently on the world stage in the World Baseball Classic. The fact that you're a Chicago Cubs fan and you're going to argue to me that fans won't support the team regardless of the quality of the player shows how far away you are from getting it. I feel like we of all people would know what truly makes fandom. If we wanted to root for the Yankees and unlimited funds, we had that option.
    You do realize that the USA won the last iteration of the World Baseball Classic, right? Not to mention, theyíve finished in the Top 4 in 2 out of the 4 WBC events

    Last edited by CubsRule08; 06-14-2020 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CubsRule08 View Post
    You do realize that the USA won the last iteration of the World Baseball Classic, right? Not to mention, theyíve finished in the Top 4 in 2 out of the 4 WBC events

    Nor should the WBC be anything of a barometer. Many of the best players are not playing in it, and those who are, are gearing up for the season.

    It's a fun diversion. It is not the World Cup, as hard as it may be trying to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Nor should the WBC be anything of a barometer. Many of the best players are not playing in it, and those who are, are gearing up for the season.

    It's a fun diversion. It is not the World Cup, as hard as it may be trying to be.

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    Exactly lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by CubsRule08 View Post
    Exactly lol
    lol. The point still stands. It's not like when international games are played we've been 10 run ruling players in other countries in the 3rd inning, such that it justifies the average MLB player getting paid 2596% more money (than the average KBO player by reference).

    If our players are so much exponentially better than players elsewhere in the world, like CP has been strongly arguing, such that they deserve that type of money, we should be blowing everyone out and always in first place, even if we aren't sending our very best. It shouldn't even be close.
    Last edited by Crusader; 06-14-2020 at 09:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    lol. The point still stands. It's not like when international games are played we've been 10 run ruling players in other countries in the 3rd inning, such that it justifies the average MLB player getting paid 2596% more money (than the average KBO player by reference).

    If our players are so much exponentially better than players elsewhere in the world, like CP has been strongly arguing, such that they deserve that type of money, we should be blowing everyone out and always in first place, even if we aren't sending our very best.
    Guys like Aaron Altherr who are awful in the MLB show up in the KBO and go bananas. This is a hitter who was somehow a -23 wRC+ last year. I'll be honest, I swear to god I had no idea you could go to the negatives in wRC+ and I've never seen it. But that was in 66 PAs. The year prior he was at a 74 in nearly 300 pa's. That's really awful.

    The same Aaron Altherr who was essentially one of the worst hitters in the majors currently had a .938 OPS in Korea. This is not an isolated situation. Terrible MLB players routinely find their way to the likes of the KBO and the NPL and go ham.

    MLB players are so far and away better than these other leagues. The KBO is generally considered to be on par with AA or high A (somewhere on a sliding scale). It's multiple levels below the majors.

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    Last time Iím doing this with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    It really is. Complete and utter nonsense



    lol. If you want to equate athleticism to intelligence/genius then be my guest, but it's silly. I think it's insulting for you to keep trying to insult owners, as if they were all people/groups with unlimited funds that only need to shell out the bill. The reason we don't insult Steve Jobs or Richard Branson is because they had intelligence. They had options. They would have been extremely successful in other fields. Tell me, in what field or what world is Carlos Zambrano a multi-millionaire doing anything else? A lot of these people are limited to playing baseball. That's all they can do. If you want to pretend they are all multi-millionaires or successful business men doing other things, well good luck with that.
    You are continuing to call these players stupid. It doesnít make one bit of difference how theyíd make a living if they werenít elite in their profession. They are. They are not dependent on the generosity of owners. They are part of the .01% of people in the world who are the very best at what they do and that skill generates enormous wealth. The owners BENEFIT from the talent of these players. Thatís a weak strawman about me ďinsultingĒ owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    You realize that loans have to be paid back, right? That's why it's a ... loan? This isn't monopoly money. If the owners didn't care and had absolutely unlimited resources we wouldn't be going through all of this, would we? They'd simply throw money at them, which is apparently what you're advocating for. I don't trust the owners. We know what their incentive is. However, at least they are providing people with jobs. If you don't think corona is throwing a monkey wrench in everything and introducing all sorts of scary risks, then you're not paying attention to what is going on. This is a once in a life time situation. There's never been a situation like this in our life time, and god willing not in the foreseeable future. Why should we potentially ruin businesses that employee a ton of employees - so that multi-millionaire baseball players get to make more money?
    No **** itís a loan. They take loans to buy their teams. They take loans to build their real estate. They take loans to launch tv networks. They take loans to do all sorts of things that make them money. If they have a cash flow problem they can take low interest loans to fulfill their contracts, as their lawyer just stated.

    None of these businesses will be ruined. Lol. They are very profitable businesses. The only thing that could ruin them is if the owners are so stupid as to keep players off the field to the point where people lose interest. Like you are rooting for with your hope of a ď5-year strike.Ē

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    See. This is absolutely the saddest part of your response. It's not strictly billionaires vs. millionaires. The organizations have employees. People's livelihoods depend on this. People who have rents. People who work hard. People who struggle to pay their bills. Real people are affected. You'd love to pretend is just people with unlimited money vs people with slightly less but basically unlimited money, but who are also geniuses because they are athletic. lol. You think I care about a billionaire's bottom line? I couldn't care less. What I care about are the people that are actually likely to feel the pinch.
    Load of nonsense. I can assure you you donít ďcare aboutĒ non player employees more than I do. You just think the players are responsible for making sure those people get paid. I think their employers own that responsibility. It has nothing to do with ďunlimited money.Ē And the players donít have ďslightly lessĒ money than owners. You seem to have no concept of money or numbers in general. Itís not the players job to pay the sales staff. The players work on guaranteed contracts. The owners are the ďrisk takers.Ē

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    Maybe it is silly. But tell me this, for all your years of fandom, for all the money you invested into the Cubs - Is it not true that you still supported them? Even when our team was absolute dog crap? I seem to remember your name years back still rooting for this team when they were absolute trash. Maybe we're different fans. I'd support the Cubs even if we had crap players. I'd support the team even if we lost. I like the Cubs not because of any individual player. I like it because of the tradition and because ... it's the Cubs. You could fire the entire team, replace them with KBO players, and I'd still support the Cubs.
    It has nothing to do with the Cubs being competitive. It has to do with the league being the best players in the world. Since integration, there has never been a doubt that we are watching the best players in the world. Replacement players are not interesting. If you replace the league with KBO/NPB players, the overwhelming majority of fans wonít be interested. I wonít be. I believe the vast majority of fans wonít be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    It's really not complicated. They get paid because fans invest more, and advertisers pay more to reach those fans investing. I've noted this numerous times. I think you actually understand this. What you're trying to ignore is the fundamental fairness that I'm pointing out. Why should 2 players get paid drastically different amounts? Why should one of those players get paid an amount that others with "real" jobs could never earn? Why should the other, who is still very skilled, but not quite at the other players level get paid an unlivable wage - where they need to take on a second job? It's a reflective question on fairness. It's like how you talk about owners with monopoly money.
    Because 1 set of those players generate billions in revenue and the other set of those players generate virtually no revenue. Every full time employee deserves a living wage imo (which should be provided by business owners, not co-workers), but people are paid according to the value they provide. Some people provide a ton more value than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    You're the one saying that the players are geniuses and they're apparently doing all this for a good reason. This is my point. These multi-millionaire players are selfish (Yes, individual owners are selfish too. It's not a nonprofit, but this goes both ways). In contrast, players don't have employees (or certainly not the number of employees). They have waaaay less responsibility. Their excessive pay leaves less money for everyone else hoping to get in the industry. It's the classic Republican argument. I have money, and I should keep my money, and I don't want to use my money so that other people could also have a chance at earning more money because then there's less for me. Additionally, now that leagues around the world are improving, guess what - owners are less willing to invest in players because they no longer have to foot the bill to train them. If player's average salaries were smaller - such that foreign players had less incentive to come to MLB for exponentially more money - then owners have an additional incentive to invest again in Milb in order to replenish the stock.
    They are geniuses in their field. They are prodigies. They are elite at what they do. Elite people get compensated well. They are revenue generators. Revenue generators get compensated well. No they donít have employees, which is why itís not their responsibility to pay other peopleís employees. They sign guaranteed contracts for their services. They provide those services. They should expect their contracts to be fulfilled. If the owners donít want to invest in developing new waves of cheaper (pre-arb) players, then thatís their choice, but itís a bad one.

    If we want to talk about classic ďrepublican argumentsĒ one of us is pro labor and the other is claiming employees should be effectively paying poorer employees to protect billionaire business owners from a year of losses. You can figure out who is on each side.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    MLB players are better players. However, they are not exponentially better - not to the degree one player gets paid $850,000 and the other gets paid $20,000. One is a multi-millionaire. The other works a second job to put food on table. Have you spent much time actually watching these other leagues? I get up routinely and watch KBO games at 3am. You see handful of players on each team that could have the ability to play MLB, yet the pay disparity is striking. The world keeps getting better. We lose frequently on the world stage in the World Baseball Classic. The fact that you're a Chicago Cubs fan and you're going to argue to me that fans won't support the team regardless of the quality of the player shows how far away you are from getting it. I feel like we of all people would know what truly makes fandom. If we wanted to root for the Yankees and unlimited funds, we had that option.
    Yes, they are exponentially better. Itís clear you donít know what you are watching at 3am. Maybe get some more sleep? Itís closer to AA than mlb. Look at the best players in those leagues who played in mlb or milb. Mel Rojas Jr is a star. Eric Thames is a part time MLB player who was Barry Bonds in Korea. Itís not close to Mlb. At all. MLB is also more than Americans. There are Mlb players on lots of WBC teams and itís a quick tournament.


    The bottom line is it doesnít matter how stupid you think players are. It doesnít matter how much money theyíd make as stock brokers. It doesnít matter that you canít tell the difference between MLB level play and KBO level play. What matters is that the players provide a service for a contracted amount of money. Owners choose to invest in the business of owning a baseball team. Owners are responsible for paying their employees and fulfilling their contracts. If there is money left after that they have the option of keeping that money. If they want to sell at any point, they can do that. Thatís all that matters. The players are the players and the owners are the owners.

    Thatís all.
    Last edited by CP_414; 06-14-2020 at 09:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    You are continuing to call these players stupid. It doesnít make one bit of difference how theyíd make a living if they werenít elite in their profession. They are. They are not dependent on the generosity of owners. They are part of the .01% of people in the world who are the very best at what they do and that skill generates enormous wealth. The owners BENEFIT from the talent of these players. Thatís a weak strawman about me ďinsultingĒ owners.
    It does. If the players collectively aren't intelligent, then it calls into question why'd they bite the hand the feeds them when they already have it leagues better than anywhere else in the world. When the players cry wolf, should I really care? Can I truly trust their assessment of the situation? Honestly, I'm very dubious for the foregoing reasons when they complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    None of these businesses will be ruined. Lol. They are very profitable businesses. The only thing that could ruin them is if the owners are so stupid as to keep players off the field to the point where people lose interest. Like you are rooting for with your hope of a ď5-year strike.Ē
    How do you know it's going to be anywhere near as profitable going forward? Your entire response here was 100% an assumption based on ... nothing. Corona is an absolute game changer. They've literally just lost entire revenue streams - tickets, vendors, most also own hotels or lodging, etc. and all that's bust.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Load of nonsense. I can assure you you donít ďcare aboutĒ non player employees more than I do. You just think the players are responsible for making sure those people get paid. I think their employers own that responsibility. It has nothing to do with ďunlimited money.Ē And the players donít have ďslightly lessĒ money than owners. You seem to have no concept of money or numbers in general. Itís not the players job to pay the sales staff. The players work on guaranteed contracts. The owners are the ďrisk takers.Ē
    If players are demanding a larger share of the pie when the size of the pie has shrunk, who do you think suffers? Do you think it's the billionaire owners that are going to struggle? You think they're just going to be okay taking the hit, or do you think they'll pass that on with cost saving measures onto other people? lol. We're living in a world in flux - state and federal laws preventing mass gatherings. Nothing is settled at this point - to pretend otherwise is to ignore the reality of the situation. We don't even know what the second wave is going to look like. With certain states opening up and the general public's disregard for corona virus protections, where they'd rather pretend corona is all in the past - it's not even clear how many years it will be until the league can operate as it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    It has nothing to do with the Cubs being competitive. It has to do with the league being the best players in the world. Since integration, there has never been a doubt that we are watching the best players in the world. Replacement players are not interesting. If you replace the league with KBO/NPB players, the overwhelming majority of fans wonít be interested. I wonít be. I believe the vast majority of fans wonít be.
    What? So you're telling me, you'd still enjoy watching your team, say the 1981 Chicago Cubs, so long as you got to see other teams like the Yankees have really good players that could use those really good players to pound your team? That would preferable to you vs. having a good team in a league with lower overall talent? I'm gonna call BS on this. That's no one's idea of a good time.

    Because 1 set of those players generate billions in revenue and the other set of those players generate virtually no revenue. Every full time employee deserves a living wage imo (which should be provided by business owners, not co-workers), but people are paid according to the value they provide. Some people provide a ton more value than others.
    Virtually no revenue? LMAO, and this from the person trying to insult me by saying that I don't have an understanding of how numbers work? That's rich. Yes, it's lower than MLB, but it's certainly not 0. Have you ever actually attended any foreign baseball games abroad? You should. It's an amazing experience. Go ahead and tell their fans their league generates virtually 0 revenue. Let me be there when you do.

    They are geniuses in their field. They are prodigies. They are elite at what they do. Elite people get compensated well. They are revenue generators. Revenue generators get compensated well. No they donít have employees, which is why itís not their responsibility to pay other peopleís employees. They sign guaranteed contracts for their services. They provide those services. They should expect their contracts to be fulfilled. If the owners donít want to invest in developing new waves of cheaper (pre-arb) players, then thatís their choice, but itís a bad one.
    People only get paid what other people are willing to pay them. If demand drops, then the cost of supply drops with it. These folks literally get paid more than anyone else in the world, and they choose to fight with owners during a pandemic. That's questionable decision making all around. Based on their contracts, they cannot play - or be paid without rule changes to make their contacts enforceable. Consequently, the players are gambling hard.

    If we want to talk about classic ďrepublican argumentsĒ one of us is pro labor and the other is claiming employees should be effectively paying poorer employees to protect billionaire business owners from a year of losses. You can figure out who is on each side.
    Pro labor lol. You want a system where people become multi-millionaires for playing baseball. I want a system where they get paid only a slight percentage more than they'd get doing a professional job - to where the pay discrepancy is more similar to elsewhere in the world. A system where billionaires get taxed out of existence. A system where even millionaires get taxed heavily, and we'd take all of that money and invest it in public utilities and infrastructure. Tell me more about how I'm more in line with classic Republican arguments .

    Yes, they are exponentially better. Itís clear you donít know what you are watching at 3am. Maybe get some more sleep? Itís closer to AA than mlb. Look at the best players in those leagues who played in mlb or milb. Mel Rojas Jr is a star. Eric Thames is a part time MLB player who was Barry Bonds in Korea. Itís not close to Mlb. At all. MLB is also more than Americans. There are Mlb players on lots of WBC teams and itís a quick tournament.
    Even if it is closer to Double A - the pay disparity shouldn't be 2596%. It's ridiculous.

    The bottom line is it doesnít matter how stupid you think players are. It doesnít matter how much money theyíd make as stock brokers. It doesnít matter that you canít tell the difference between MLB level play and KBO level play. What matters is that the players provide a service for a contracted amount of money. Owners choose to invest in the business of owning a baseball team. Owners are responsible for paying their employees and fulfilling their contracts. If there is money left after that they have the option of keeping that money. If they want to sell at any point, they can do that. Thatís all that matters. The players are the players and the owners are the owners.
    It doesn't matter that you think owners should continually shell out money when the current contracts are unenforceable. It doesn't matter if you think the season should be more than 50 games. If the player's don't change their position when it comes time to bargain for the next CBA they are in for a world of hurt. The owners have far more leverage than the players. The owners might take a hit financially if they replaced multi-millionaires with millionaires, but they could do it.

    That is all.
    Last edited by Crusader; 06-15-2020 at 01:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    Guys like Aaron Altherr who are awful in the MLB show up in the KBO and go bananas. This is a hitter who was somehow a -23 wRC+ last year. I'll be honest, I swear to god I had no idea you could go to the negatives in wRC+ and I've never seen it. But that was in 66 PAs. The year prior he was at a 74 in nearly 300 pa's. That's really awful.

    The same Aaron Altherr who was essentially one of the worst hitters in the majors currently had a .938 OPS in Korea. This is not an isolated situation. Terrible MLB players routinely find their way to the likes of the KBO and the NPL and go ham.

    MLB players are so far and away better than these other leagues. The KBO is generally considered to be on par with AA or high A (somewhere on a sliding scale). It's multiple levels below the majors.

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    Didnít Chris Davis go something like 0 for 56 before he exploded by going 3 for 5 to break the hitless streak? Iíd be mortified if a hitter can go 3 for 61 and somehow not have a negative wRC+.

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