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  1. #61
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    Trump got elected because of the crappy republicans running against him in the primary, voters dissatifaction with career politicans and their policies, and running against the most polarizing democrat nominatee. Where you figure the left in all that is beyond me.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    running against the most polarizing democrat nominatee. Where you figure the left in all that is beyond me.


  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnaround3 View Post
    What? you punch the wrong key? Clinton is a leftist? If you think this you must be a over the cliff right winger.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    What? you punch the wrong key? Clinton is a leftist? If you think this you must be a over the cliff right winger.
    I don't support any political party.

    The divide among the dems, between the far left and the centrists, is one of the single largest reasons Trump was elected. The divide is even greater now.

    The great fallacy that each passing generation is more progressive is provably not true. If it were, there would be no Trump Presidency. What is true, for what it's worth (read: little) is that the collective progressive voice is the loudest one, substantially in fact, in the realm of social media.

    On the modern landscape, this platform is often confused, sometimes deliberately sometimes not, with reality.

    More simply - Twitter is not real life.


  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnaround3 View Post
    I don't support any political party.

    The divide among the dems, between the far left and the centrists, is one of the single largest reasons Trump was elected. The divide is even greater now.

    The great fallacy that each passing generation is more progressive is provably not true. If it were, there would be no Trump Presidency. What is true, for what it's worth (read: little) is that the collective progressive voice is the loudest one, substantially in fact, in the realm of social media.

    On the modern landscape, this platform is often confused, sometimes deliberately sometimes not, with reality.

    More simply - Twitter is not real life.
    Not saying your wrong but in general on social issues society does tend to get less conservative over time. For example, support for Gay Marriage is in the upper 60's, but as recently as the early 00's it was in the 40's and in '96 it was 27%. We have also seen a similar trend with acceptance of Marijuana.

    Also, young people were not why Trump won the Presidency.

    https://www.kqed.org/lowdown/24448/h...ntial-election

    37% of people 18-29 voted for the Republican in both 2012 and 2016. The difference was that only 55% voted for Clinton in 2016 compared to 60% for Obama in 2012. I doubt the reason they didn't support Hillary was her progressivism.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnaround3 View Post
    I don't support any political party.

    The divide among the dems, between the far left and the centrists, is one of the single largest reasons Trump was elected. The divide is even greater now.
    Well, that says a lot more then a raised eyebrow. I still say it is the voter dissatifaction with career politicans then the presense of the left, which also explain the republcian base turning on their republican career politicans for Trump. Just blaming the left doesn't explain the republican base voting for Trump to be the republican nominee.

    The great fallacy that each passing generation is more progressive is provably not true. If it were, there would be no Trump Presidency. What is true, for what it's worth (read: little) is that the collective progressive voice is the loudest one, substantially in fact, in the realm of social media.

    On the modern landscape, this platform is often confused, sometimes deliberately sometimes not, with reality.

    More simply - Twitter is not real life.

    I agree to a point. Popularism is cyclical in american politic. You can look at the abolitionist of Lincoln time, the labor movement in the early 1900's with the raise of socialism in american politics, which also appears in FDR's New Deal to my generation, the boomers, with the various movements of the sixties.

    Each time popularism has risen up is because of strifle and discontent in the american public. Now, we see popularism in the right in those who voted for Trump. If you think I am bs, just look at his campaign speech during his run for president. Better medical care, pulling our troops out of the middle east, American first (meaning the audiences of average americans he is talking to at his rallies) are all similar to what the Left base under Bernie pushes. The only different is ethnic-centerism that Trump pushes, and cherishing our diversity that the left pushes.

    History repeats or at least echo itself. Trump is president because people didn't trust career politicans or their policies anymore.
    Last edited by WES445; 02-21-2020 at 04:07 PM.

  7. #67
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    Before Trump came into office, the tea party, much like what the progressives are doing now, infilrated the party and forced the moderates out of control of the party.

    After Trump election, his people forced the non-Trump supporters out with a lot of them just not seeking re-election.

    We are seeing a lot turmoil in both parties as they try to find a new balance.

    People want their party to be more responsive to the voters and not the donors class.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    37% of people 18-29 voted for the Republican in both 2012 and 2016. The difference was that only 55% voted for Clinton in 2016 compared to 60% for Obama in 2012. I doubt the reason they didn't support Hillary was her progressivism.
    So unless I'm missing something, to argue against the point that each passing generation does not unilaterally get more progressive, you're pointing to a 5% decline in 18-29 year olds voting democrat between 2012 and 2016?

    I'm having some trouble making sense of that.

    Your points on gay marriage and pot are taken, but these are only two of thousands on thousands of potential issues. As an example, stats have also indicated people tend to trend more fiscally conservative as they age, but I wouldn't point to that one issue as suggesting that society in general is getting more conservative with each passing generation.


  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnaround3 View Post
    So unless I'm missing something, to argue against the point that each passing generation does not unilaterally get more progressive, you're pointing to a 5% decline in 18-29 year olds voting democrat between 2012 and 2016?

    I'm having some trouble making sense of that.

    Your points on gay marriage and pot are taken, but these are only two of thousands on thousands of potential issues. As an example, stats have also indicated people tend to trend more fiscally conservative as they age, but I wouldn't point to that one issue as suggesting that society in general is getting more conservative with each passing generation.
    Not that hard to make sense of when you think about it. I'm not saying there's more progressives for their era today than there were in any previous era, I'm saying what is considered progressive gets more and more progressive as time goes on.

    Consider that today you are a progressive if you want equality for transgenders, and the accepted norm is gay marriage.
    30 years ago you were a progressive if you wanted gay marriage, and the accepted norm was interracial marriage.
    30 years before that, you were a progressive if you wanted interracial marriage.

    So by today's standards, there are no more progressives today than there were back then but what is considered progressive has shifted. If we used the standards of progressives for the 1950s/1960s where you were progressive if you wanted interracial marriage, then the US currently is around 99% progressive.

    In that way, society is getting more progressive over time, even if the number of progressives for their time stays constant.

    I would also point out, I specifically said regarding social issues. Yes, society tends to get more fiscally conservative as they age (and they get more socially "conservative" as they age in that their social stances that were once progressive or the norm now have become conservative as the societal perception of those issues has gone more progressive).

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Not saying your wrong but in general on social issues society does tend to get less conservative over time. For example, support for Gay Marriage is in the upper 60's, but as recently as the early 00's it was in the 40's and in '96 it was 27%. We have also seen a similar trend with acceptance of Marijuana.

    Also, young people were not why Trump won the Presidency.

    https://www.kqed.org/lowdown/24448/h...ntial-election

    37% of people 18-29 voted for the Republican in both 2012 and 2016. The difference was that only 55% voted for Clinton in 2016 compared to 60% for Obama in 2012. I doubt the reason they didn't support Hillary was her progressivism.
    I'm sensing a strong correlation forming here: people are more cool with gay marriage now because more people are smoking weed....WHICH IS TURNING THEM GAY!

    What a sick, twisted world we live in.

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    I'm sensing a strong correlation forming here: people are more cool with gay marriage now because more people are smoking weed....WHICH IS TURNING THEM GAY!

    What a sick, twisted world we live in.
    It's turning the freakin' frogs gay!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Not that hard to make sense of when you think about it. I'm not saying there's more progressives for their era today than there were in any previous era, I'm saying what is considered progressive gets more and more progressive as time goes on.

    Consider that today you are a progressive if you want equality for transgenders, and the accepted norm is gay marriage.
    30 years ago you were a progressive if you wanted gay marriage, and the accepted norm was interracial marriage.
    30 years before that, you were a progressive if you wanted interracial marriage.

    So by today's standards, there are no more progressives today than there were back then but what is considered progressive has shifted. If we used the standards of progressives for the 1950s/1960s where you were progressive if you wanted interracial marriage, then the US currently is around 99% progressive.

    In that way, society is getting more progressive over time, even if the number of progressives for their time stays constant.

    I would also point out, I specifically said regarding social issues. Yes, society tends to get more fiscally conservative as they age (and they get more socially "conservative" as they age in that their social stances that were once progressive or the norm now have become conservative as the societal perception of those issues has gone more progressive).
    I agree with all of this.

    You made exactly the correct, and entirely pivotal, distinction. The number of progressives hasn't changed much, if at all. What is considered progressive has shifted drastically.

    The left often makes the mistake that newer generations entering voting age are trending more to their side. They aren't. It's pretty much right where it's always been. Social media however has afforded the "woke" (or whatever term you prefer) a platform in which to scream the loudest. They've seized it, whole heartedly. It's skewed the optics, but anyone paying attention understands there has been no genuine paradigm shift here.

    The evidence is Trump. Everything that he is, paired with his overall approval ratings. You needn't look any further.


  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    I'm sensing a strong correlation forming here: people are more cool with gay marriage now because more people are smoking weed....WHICH IS TURNING THEM GAY!

    What a sick, twisted world we live in.
    Close. But remember what the Brits call cigarettes if you want to know what's turning people gay...just saying.
    Prior to 11/1/19: if you were on my ignore list, I was sticking to ignoring you thanks to great advise.
    From 11/1/19 on: I will no longer be responding to comments back to people on my ignore list.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    Call me an optimist or even naive, but I think A LOT will change in the country over the next 30 years, regardless of the outcome of the 2020 election. The baby boomers are retiring, to put it bluntly they will die out. By 2040 the U.S. will be majority minority, and each new generation is more progressive than the last. The state of our democracy today will not be our democracy in the future. The GOP has lost the younger generations and the democratic party is on severe notice.

    I'm not going to say that over the next 20-30 years all problems are going to go away, far from it, but that one way or another massive change in the country is coming. Bernie Sanders and his message have won over young voters for a reason and he has changed politics forever. Politicians will not get away with this **** for much longer, the clock is ticking.
    You responded to my post about money, not about change. So I ask, what does being more or less progressive have to do with getting money out of politics? It costs a lot of money to run for office. Simple as that. Sanders has to raise a lot of money.

    Now, if you are talking about where the money comes from, that may be a different story (though I’d say good luck to that, especially given the current state of our judiciary).

    Furthermore, even if people become more socially progressive (gay marriage, abortion, cannabis), I see little indication that they become more economically progressive. Follow the money trail. Visit Silicon Valley.

    Interestingly, of the top so-called self-made uber-wealthy in America— this does not include, say, the Walton/Mars heirs — only two are baby boomers: Gates (2) & Ballmer (14).

    Pre-baby boomers are Ellison (4), Koch (8), Buffett, Bloomberg (6), Knight (17), Adelson (15).

    Bezos (1), Zuckerberg (5), Page (7), Brin (10), Dell (16), and Musk (20), Dell (16) are all post baby-boomers (GenX).

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Not that hard to make sense of when you think about it. I'm not saying there's more progressives for their era today than there were in any previous era, I'm saying what is considered progressive gets more and more progressive as time goes on.

    Consider that today you are a progressive if you want equality for transgenders, and the accepted norm is gay marriage.
    30 years ago you were a progressive if you wanted gay marriage, and the accepted norm was interracial marriage.
    30 years before that, you were a progressive if you wanted interracial marriage.

    So by today's standards, there are no more progressives today than there were back then but what is considered progressive has shifted. If we used the standards of progressives for the 1950s/1960s where you were progressive if you wanted interracial marriage, then the US currently is around 99% progressive.

    In that way, society is getting more progressive over time, even if the number of progressives for their time stays constant.

    I would also point out, I specifically said regarding social issues. Yes, society tends to get more fiscally conservative as they age (and they get more socially "conservative" as they age in that their social stances that were once progressive or the norm now have become conservative as the societal perception of those issues has gone more progressive).
    If progressive/liberalism/FDRdems is ever growing trend, then why did they did disappear from the political scene during the Clinton to late into the Obama's administration? They really haven't gotten press untill 2018. Having progressive trends within the public is fine and dandy, but their belief weren't reflected in the democrat party, which was trying it's best for a long time to out republican the republicans. Even now, Amy Klobuchar is talking about appealing to republicans. Our political system definitly haven't seen this gradual change.

    I mean, the poster you are answering is blaming the rise of Trump to the leftist/progressive fight with the moderate for control of the party. He and you also haven't answer why the republicans turned on their own political leaders for a game show host.

    If progressiveness is a gradual thing, then why is the battle for the party happening now? Something must have changed? I think the leaderships of both party are being challenge by the voters. It comes from the people believing their government isn't working in their best interest.
    Last edited by WES445; 02-21-2020 at 06:30 PM.

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