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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Do you think the Knicks should have tanked in the 90ís?


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    No, they were winning and mainly due to getting the top pick in 1985. Are you trying to compare what is going on now with what was happening in the 90's?

    Do I think if they took this approach at some point over the last 20 years things would be better now, yes.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Wasn't necessarily a direct comparison. It was just highlighting how good Ball can be based on his skill set and showing that the biggest issue people have with him is his family.
    Yeah id agree with that mostly, but donnies work behind the 3 line seperates himself from pretty much everyone else, but a few players.

    I dont think melo has that part of donnies game, but he is very skilled for sure, has the length and athletism to go with it.

    He or wiseman talent wise, should be the top 2 picks.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    No, they were winning and mainly due to getting the top pick in 1985. Are you trying to compare what is going on now with what was happening in the 90's?

    Do I think if they took this approach at some point over the last 20 years things would be better now, yes.
    You keep harping on how many times they have had a top five pick since 85 like it is a telling stat but many of those years they are legit title contenders or just a good team and in no way should have been trying land at the top of the draft. Itís disingenuous at best


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    You keep harping on how many times they have had a top five pick since 85 like it is a telling stat but many of those years they are legit title contenders or just a good team and in no way should have been trying land at the top of the draft. Itís disingenuous at best


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    Itís not disingenuous, considering that their run ended 21 years ago.

    Does it make a difference if I say that theyíve only had two top 5 picks in 21 years? Itís the same point. Thatís still an incredibly long time for having only two realistic shots at the best prospects in the draft.
    Last edited by smood999; 02-09-2020 at 03:48 PM.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    The Knicks have tanked yet have only had two top 5 picks since 1986 and three top 7 picks in that same time? That doesn't make sense at all and a lot of that is because they did exactly what they are doing now as if getting to 30 wins means anything. It's not like they've been in a position to draft that high and simply fell out. They've dropped, but they've dropped after finishing 7, 8, 9 in the lottery standings.

    The only two times they've truly been one of the worst teams in the league resulted in KP and RJ. All of the other times, they needed to move up to have a chance, which is what you're basically asking for now. As little of a chance as they have to stay in a desired spot, it's even smaller that they move up.

    Doncic was traded for Trae Young. The other trade wasn't notable. Teams trade within tiers, they don't just say hey I have a top 3 pick and although this guy is clearly better, I'm going to drop down for more assets. The NBA doesn't work like that. Quality is much more important than quantity.

    You keep looking at it as ONLY tanking and that is not what I'm suggesting at all. There's nothing they can do at the moment besides put themselves in a better position for a top draft pick to get better in the future. 27 plus wins literally means nothing. As of right now, February 9, there's only one thing they can do to improve in the long run

    It's not the medicine to guarantee a championship, but it is to build a foundation to create a championship team, whether that's by trade or keeping the player. How many teams can you name that their success wasn't initiated by a draft pick they hit on in some form? Even the Raptors who everyone wants to point to doesn't get to trade for Kawhi without hitting on DeRozan in the draft. Most roads lead through the draft in some form.

    Even if the Sixers don't win a championship, they have two massive trade pieces in Embiid and Simmons to help them move forward.

    Look at the Grizzlies, Kings, and Mavs. Again, foundations established through the draft. They aren't title contenders now, but they now have a realistic avenue towards that with the foundation that they've built/the player or players that they are building around. Even the Suns with some maneuvering could end up being a good team. The Knicks do not have any semblance of a foundation and that is the issue.
    Why isn't it notable that the 5th pick was traded for the 3rd pick in 2018 and the 4th pick was traded for #8, #17, #35 in 2019?

    It appears the argument has gone from "tanking and drafting your core is the only way this thing works" to "every great team drafted somebody at some point". I am pretty sure we have plenty of homegrown draft picks on this team right now. And we will add another this year.

    The Knicks have been very unlucky in the draft and we all know that's a fact. You are acting as if all the teams who have lucked their way into the stars of the drafts did so by blatant tanking and not playing any veterans ever. It's just not true.

    Grizzlies didn't tank yet leapfrogged their way into the top 5 twice. Kings have been trying to win for a decade and paying all sorts of players all sorts of big time money and are certainly not a case of tanking. Mavs have been the anti-tank ever since the won a championship and decided to throw away ONE season and still only managed to get the 5th pick, and they traded up for Doncic. If you are using those guys as your evidence, you are essentially just complaining the Knicks haven't gotten lucky and moved up like they have OR capitalized on their mid lottery positions like they have.

  6. #171
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    Game #53- Knicks @ Piston- Knicks going for 4 straight wins

    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Itís not disingenuous, considering that their run ended 21 years ago.

    Does it make a difference if I say that theyíve only had two top 5 picks in 21 years? Itís the same point.
    Yes it would make a difference. There are years in that period where they had no business tanking as well but youíd be closer to making a legitimate point [emoji3]


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    The large majority of teams that tank the way you are asking us to are suffering just as bad as us year after year after year. Knicks tanked their balls off in 2016, tried to win in 2017 and flopped, tanked away 3/4th of the season in 2018, they tanked their ***** of last year. Tanking hasn't done anything to cure our suffering. All of the teams at the bottom of the conferences sans GSW are perennial tank teams. You are acting like tanking is the medicine for our suffering and it's clearly not.

    Also, the last two drafts had trade ups at the top of the lottery. And yes I am talking about something from say 8th to 5th or 6th to 3rd. There are a lot of teams with solidified PG spots who will be placed in the top 5 so if we fall back I think we would be primed to trade up this year.

    No matter where the Knicks end up in the rankings, the odds of them falling out of your desirable spot in the draft are very high. You are painting this picture like getting a top 3 pick is easy or something. It's hard damn work to tank bad enough to give yourself the best shot at the top pick and once you get there, the odds are still stacked against you. You want to lose every game on purpose for the rest of the year to gain like a 5% added chance of landing where you want to land.
    We all seem to have this conversation every year. Winning these games is not an issue if letís say it was Knox, nilikina, Robinson, and RJ leading the way. But thats not the case. Weíre sitting our young players for guys that wonít be on the team next year or for very long. We do this every year. Tanking is not that hard, just play the young guys. Look at Golden state. I know people are gonna be like oh they donít have steph or clay. But they do have green, and they had Dlo. They have other talent too and a great coach. But theyíre able to mange the worst record in the league and we canít?

    The two times that we had a top 5 picks, we drafted KP and RJ. I like both of those picks, we were stupid to trade KP. But that doesnít mean it wasnít a good pick. The bad picks have been the late picks Knox, and nilikina. If we had a top five picks those two years we wouldnít have this thread because we might have players like Jason Tatum, doncic, trey young.

    Meaningless wins have cost us and will continue to cost us this season. I rather have a top 5 pick this year than another 8th or 9th. We basically suffer for a full season and at 8 or 9 you get to draft scrubs like nilikina and frank.

    This is just a terrible franchise.

  8. #173
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    I'm not for tanking, I thought we should have tried to improve the roster and we did try, I just disagreed with the guys we bought in. But we gain nothing from winning with guys like Randle, Portis, Taj, Bullock, Ellington & Payton leading the way. and I know some like Payton but I have a hard time imagining him being here in 2-3 years or being an important part of any NBA team really. I think we are starved for PG play but Payton is not the answer, especially with RJ & Mitch being our two young studs right now.

    but I know many disagree and it is what it is. He's going to get us 5-6 more wins this year, hopefully it doesn't screw us long term like so many of these random vets did that had no future here.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Yes it would make a difference. There are years in that period where they had no business tanking as well but youíd be closer to making a legitimate point [emoji3]


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    The only years where it didnít make sense were the first three Melo years. Trading draft picks for Marbury, Curry, etc. just goes to the point that the draft has been a complete after thought for the Knicks.

  10. #175
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    Game #53- Knicks @ Piston- Knicks going for 4 straight wins

    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    I'm not for tanking, I thought we should have tried to improve the roster and we did try, I just disagreed with the guys we bought in. But we gain nothing from winning with guys like Randle, Portis, Taj, Bullock, Ellington & Payton leading the way. and I know some like Payton but I have a hard time imagining him being here in 2-3 years or being an important part of any NBA team really. I think we are starved for PG play but Payton is not the answer, especially with RJ & Mitch being our two young studs right now.

    but I know many disagree and it is what it is. He's going to get us 5-6 more wins this year, hopefully it doesn't screw us long term like so many of these random vets did that had no future here.
    Randle and Payton are the guys you mentioned that are actually leading and they are coming back lol. The other guys might have a random games but they arenít leading us. Taj plays regularly but someone has to split mins with Mitch. I do expect the other guys mins to go down and some might even be buy outs. Anyway Tre Jones and Payton will be running show next year and we will be better off [emoji3]


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  11. #176
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    Game #53- Knicks @ Piston- Knicks going for 4 straight wins

    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    The only years where it didnít make sense were the first three Melo years. Trading draft picks for Marbury, Curry, etc. just goes to the point that the draft has been a complete after thought for the Knicks.
    You starting make a point instead of being disingenuous to overstate things


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Randle and Payton are the guys you mentioned that are actually leading and they are coming back lol. The other guys might have a random games but they arenít leading us. Taj plays regularly but someone has to split mins with Mitch. I do expect the other guys mins to go down and some might even be buy outs. Anyway Tre Jones and Payton will be running show next year and we will be better off [emoji3]


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    Randle & Payton might be back next year but they are not part of the long term solution. You'd have a hard time finding two worse fits at PF & PG next to MItch & RJ TBH. Brian Windhorst said it best, despite the bad KP trade and the bad FAgency, we are still in a decent position if we just prioritize Mitch & RJ and get guys that fit around them. But this team just makes bad decision after bad decision.

    and I love Taj, want him back next year, but he shouldn't be playing more or the same as Mitch right now.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Why isn't it notable that the 5th pick was traded for the 3rd pick in 2018 and the 4th pick was traded for #8, #17, #35 in 2019?

    It appears the argument has gone from "tanking and drafting your core is the only way this thing works" to "every great team drafted somebody at some point". I am pretty sure we have plenty of homegrown draft picks on this team right now. And we will add another this year.

    The Knicks have been very unlucky in the draft and we all know that's a fact. You are acting as if all the teams who have lucked their way into the stars of the drafts did so by blatant tanking and not playing any veterans ever. It's just not true.

    Grizzlies didn't tank yet leapfrogged their way into the top 5 twice. Kings have been trying to win for a decade and paying all sorts of players all sorts of big time money and are certainly not a case of tanking. Mavs have been the anti-tank ever since the won a championship and decided to throw away ONE season and still only managed to get the 5th pick, and they traded up for Doncic. If you are using those guys as your evidence, you are essentially just complaining the Knicks haven't gotten lucky and moved up like they have OR capitalized on their mid lottery positions like they have.
    They traded within tiers not out of one. The value of all picks vary from year to year based on the prospects.

    Yes, the best way for a team to build is to establish a core or accumulate pieces that can lead to one. Itís not just drafting anyone. Not sure how you got that. What do the Knicks homegrown pieces equate to? Who cares how many they have? How good are they?

    The Knicks have not been as unlucky as you think. Theyíve largely drafted in the area that theyíve finished. They havenít moved up, but they havenít dropped more than one or two spots. If they were a worse team and that happened, the impact wouldnít be nearly as great. Dropping from 2 to 4 is not the same as dropping from 7 to 9, or even 8.

    With the old lottery system, most teams stayed within one or two picks of where they were slotted. In fact, before the new rules the worst team won the lottery in four straight years. Thatís not luck. Those teams put themselves in those positions. They didnít hope to jump up from 9.

    Agreed on the Kings. Dallas was the 3rd worst team and actually fell back. Memphis was the second worst team and fell back. If anything it shows how important it is to limit how far back you can fall.

    Last year, the Grizzlies got off to a 16-11 start. Safe to say that winning wasnít a priority for them towards the end of the season.

    Not sure how you call the Mavs anti-tanking when Cuban publicly admitted to doing so and telling his players and coaches. They drafted Doncic and moved along. Itís not about endless tanking. Itís getting the necessary piece or pieces to move forward, which the Knicks have not done.
    Last edited by smood999; 02-09-2020 at 04:28 PM.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Randle and Payton are the guys you mentioned that are actually leading and they are coming back lol. The other guys might have a random games but they arenít leading us. Taj plays regularly but someone has to split mins with Mitch. I do expect the other guys mins to go down and some might even be buy outs. Anyway Tre Jones and Payton will be running show next year and we will be better off [emoji3]


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    I like Taj too, but what about Wooten?

    Weíre not going to see him this year?

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    I like Taj too, but what about Wooten?

    Weíre not going to see him this year?
    doesn't seem like it, Miller said he's better off in the G-league getting consistent minutes.

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