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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I've made no bones about it, don't like Chuck Fletcher much at all. With that said, no qualms with how today went. The Flyers are in a no bueno cap situation to begin with...so almost anything they had to do had to be small. I'm glad they didn't trade Ghost. Think he's a far better player than he's shown this year, think selling short on him is a bad idea (it allows the Flyers to let Braun go silently into the night in the offsason, while allowing, hopefully, Myers and Ghost to take spots on the blue line next year, relegating Hagg).

    They didn't get a ton (bottom-6 line guys), but at least both offer options as PK'ers, don't require any O-Zone time, are on one year deals, and the Flyers didn't give up anything. Team is situated to fight for the 3rd spot in the Metro the rest of the year. Sneaky suspicion is they still end up as a WC, but they're not in a bad spot for the season.

    I'm not super excited about a lot of things Fletcher has done overall (some have worked out better than I thought, like Niskanen, some have been pretty unfun, like Justin Braun, and I think we have some time to really decipher if Hayes needed 7 years or not - he's been a pretty solid player, but I remain a little iffy with mediocre possession numbers and it's questionable he keeps up scoring short handed as often as he has) but I can't complain with the deadline. This was fine today with the trades if they both settle in on the bottom.
    i agree with all of this... great post

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by txravis12 View Post
    I've never seen someone with his possession numbers TBH. 39%CF is appalling as is his -10% relative to his team. It's an outlier though career wise. Haven't seen him enough to have an opinion though. The 3 shorties make me happy, the 17% shooting percentage makes me nervous.
    I'd say his possession numbers are so terrible because he's basically never given an opportunity in the offensive zone. He's at an amazing 70% d-zone start. I'd say that the possession numbers and the relative numbers are all whacked up because of it.

    I'm more interested in his numbers last year, honestly. 48% CF, still really high d-zone and positive relative to teammates. It's not like...fun. But with the faceoff ability, and if he makes some of the trash we've been running on the 4th line go away? You can ride his wave of lucky goals, maybe.

  3. #423
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    We are in a bad cap situation because fletcher used all the cap money we had on Braun ... 3.8m when we could have just played Hagg or Friedman all year and saved ourselves 2m+ in cap space ... we wouldnít be marginally worse or better.

    Iíll even say Nisky and keeping 1m for gudas is a wash because of how good Nisky has been with provorov, which is 6.5m of the cap.


    If youíre telling me the difference between a 1st and 2nd round playoff exit is Thompson and Grant ... Iím going to say, whatís the difference, these moves didnít push us any closer to a cup. And that is also a pipe dream if you think these guys are the ticket to a conference final. We lack high end talent and goal scoring outside of TK and Couturier.

    Adding trocheck would be a great addition now and later ... and we werenít in the game. These moves to give up low round picks donít excite me at all and are a waste of assets. We arenít a cup team, why are you adding stupid players and giving up picks unnecessarily?!

    If Patty comes back, these moves are even worse. I think he is out for the year tho.

  4. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    his value is in the toilet like i stated just admit you didnt have a clue and move along.
    Yeah, Ghost's value to the Flyers is probably much higher than it is to another team. If you're a good team, Ghost doesn't offer a player who's currently playing well, or healthy. So...you don't want him. If you're a bad team, he's interesting as a reclamation, but you don't want to give up anything for him.

    For the Flyers he represents an in-house option, who, in theory, should at least be a player who can replace a departing Braun on the third line next season, and who has shown the capability of being a top-4 defensemen and a PP QB. Maybe he isn't him any more, but it's not like he's old, had a massive injury, or is like a decade removed. Really, it's 1.5 years, he's been in a few systems, and he has been jerked around a little this year with injury. I'm not certain what he is or isn't, but I think there's a good player in there. Still. Somewhere.

    So I'd say for the Flyers you have more incentive to keep him then whisk him away for nothing right now. Especially because I think you'd probably have to retain some salary or send prospects as of now. Neither of which outweigh what you can still get with him on your roster.

    I hope, at the very least, with some AHL conditioning, that he can replace Hagg in the lineup and take some minutes.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    his value is in the toilet like i stated just admit you didnt have a clue and move along.
    Everything you say is based in opinion without any sources/stats, it is very sad.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    We are in a bad cap situation because fletcher used all the cap money we had on Braun ... 3.8m when we could have just played Hagg or Friedman all year and saved ourselves 2m+ in cap space ... we wouldnít be marginally worse or better.

    Iíll even say Nisky and keeping 1m for gudas is a wash because of how good Nisky has been with provorov, which is 6.5m of the cap.


    If youíre telling me the difference between a 1st and 2nd round playoff exit is Thompson and Grant ... Iím going to say, whatís the difference, these moves didnít push us any closer to a cup. And that is also a pipe dream if you think these guys are the ticket to a conference final. We lack high end talent and goal scoring outside of TK and Couturier.

    Adding trocheck would be a great addition now and later ... and we werenít in the game. These moves to give up low round picks donít excite me at all and are a waste of assets. We arenít a cup team, why are you adding stupid players and giving up picks unnecessarily?!

    If Patty comes back, these moves are even worse. I think he is out for the year tho.
    I agree, this isn't a Cup team. I've been saying that for a while. I'm not disagreeing there. But really...what picks did we give up? We gave up a 5th in 2021, and a 4th/Non-prospect. Neither represent picks that will likely be missed. I won't disagree that Grant/Thompson don't make us a Cup team. I think we're a 1st round exit in most situations as of now, but I wouldn't be surprised if we gave someone trouble.

    I know Trochek is a nice player. But can we be real for a moment? Trochek doesn't make us a Cup team today, either. I think he's a really nice player, too. So right away, you're throwing away a good part of his contract surplus value (he's got 2 years plus this season remaining) on what you give up. Then we have to ask...how rare of a player is Trochek? He's really nice, but he's not impossible to get most off seasons through trade. He's going to be 27. He's a good possession player, had a great season two years ago production wise, but has mostly settled in during his career as a 55 point dude (I think right situation he's more of a 65-70 guy, if you put him with good line mates, but trade value wise, you have to also hold it against him). I wouldn't be surprised if the Flyers can find another trade for another Trochek in the offseason, and maybe would be able to use the value of his contract better. Good possession players who are not always used to their best around that age exist. So I don't think it'd be overly difficult to find another player like this out there if you're looking.

    I won't throw a fit missing on Trochek right now. Totally agree in many ways that we're not a cup team, haven't been, and the cap hasn't been managed well. But I can sleep missing on Trochek. And I won't miss the picks. Those are long shots to be anything.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I agree, this isn't a Cup team. I've been saying that for a while. I'm not disagreeing there. But really...what picks did we give up? We gave up a 5th in 2021, and a 4th/Non-prospect. Neither represent picks that will likely be missed. I won't disagree that Grant/Thompson don't make us a Cup team. I think we're a 1st round exit in most situations as of now, but I wouldn't be surprised if we gave someone trouble.

    I know Trochek is a nice player. But can we be real for a moment? Trochek doesn't make us a Cup team today, either. I think he's a really nice player, too. So right away, you're throwing away a good part of his contract surplus value (he's got 2 years plus this season remaining) on what you give up. Then we have to ask...how rare of a player is Trochek? He's really nice, but he's not impossible to get most off seasons through trade. He's going to be 27. He's a good possession player, had a great season two years ago production wise, but has mostly settled in during his career as a 55 point dude. I wouldn't be surprised if the Flyers can find another trade for another Trochek in the offseason, and maybe would be able to use the value of his contract better.

    I won't throw a fit missing on Trochek right now. Totally agree in many ways that we're not a cup team, haven't been, and the cap hasn't been managed well. But I can sleep missing on Trochek. And I won't miss the picks. Those are long shots to be anything.
    Iím not at all upset about missing on him, but I do think he is a difference maker that would push us into a conference final ... and he would fit nicely on the team the next two seasons, especially with expansion coming up ... as I said, I want to add an impact player that helps us now and for the next few season. Thompson and Grant donít do that ... and we are right back to where we started.

    Realistically, Voracek and G (and JVR) have 2 more years to try to win a cup ... this is another year we gave up on that. Frost, Patty, Farabee, Ratcliffe, York, Brink are all 50/50 shots over the next two years to blossom into another TK or Sanheim and tangibly help ... and if we arenít going to try to go all out for a cup in 2020/2021 ... then just trade G and Voracek already so couturier doesnít turn 30 before you know it. Time management is the biggest issue. Next season should be an all out cup year attempt. We need an elite goal scoring wing and another 20/40 guy on offense. That will require trading the unproven youth ... or just give up and trade G, Voracek, and JVR already. Gís deal is up soon ... that is like 2.5 years away. Itís now or never.

  8. #428
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    I've made no bones about it, don't like Chuck Fletcher much at all.
    i get where you're coming from, but it's weird to feel so personally attacked by fletcher. he wasn't here when the team decided to fire hextall, and the guy who made that decision, paul holmgren, is gone.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by castan_b View Post
    Iím not at all upset about missing on him, but I do think he is a difference maker that would push us into a conference final ... and he would fit nicely on the team the next two seasons, especially with expansion coming up ... as I said, I want to add an impact player that helps us now and for the next few season. Thompson and Grant donít do that ... and we are right back to where we started.

    Realistically, Voracek and G (and JVR) have 2 more years to try to win a cup ... this is another year we gave up on that. Frost, Patty, Farabee, Ratcliffe, York, Brink are all 50/50 shots over the next two years to blossom into another TK or Sanheim and tangibly help ... and if we arenít going to try to go all out for a cup in 2020/2021 ... then just trade G and Voracek already so couturier doesnít turn 30 before you know it. Time management is the biggest issue. Next season should be an all out cup year attempt. We need an elite goal scoring wing and another 20/40 guy on offense. That will require trading the unproven youth ... or just give up and trade G, Voracek, and JVR already. Gís deal is up soon ... that is like 2.5 years away. Itís now or never.
    Eh. I think we need to walk things back. We're not on Giroux's timeline. We're on the franchise timeline. I love Giroux. I like Voracek. JVR...whatever. But I would hesitate to say this is an all-out Cup year. We're not really in a spot where we need to be to feel like we're there. I think the team, if they can stop bouncing players around so much, might be a lot closer to that with the young talent than they think they are.

    I think it's really, really, specious to say that the Flyers are a Conference Finals team with Trochek. This isn't a franchise definer. He's a good player. But he's not single-handedly taking a team who's probably getting knocked out in, what will probably be a tough-fought series, but a first round series, two extra rounds.

    We can add an impact player in the off-season and not pay for it now. If you buy Trochek now, you pay for the season. That's about 15% of his contract you're just throwing away. Sometimes, it's worth to buy the 15% percent, but you have to be a talent you can't get sometime else. I think the Flyers can find a Vincent Trochek in the offseason. I don't think spending the 15% today is worth what you can probably get in June/July. I don't disagree he'd help now, but I don't think it's enough. And I don't disagree he'd help in the future, but I don't think he's special enough to toss 15% of his surplus value away.

    I, again, can't say I've been Fletcher-Fan-Number-1. And I won't be. But I'd rather the Flyers at least accept what they are right now, a team who isn't a real Cup team, act like it. They didn't add any more Justin Braun type mistakes. They didn't give up anything big. They didn't get much, but it's all one-year deal stuff. You can make the playoffs this year, maybe win a series (but I think it's more likely we don't), and you can re-assess next offseason a little better. There's going to be other Trocheks. We can get a top-6 forward then.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by steagles View Post
    i get where you're coming from, but it's weird to feel so personally attacked by fletcher. he wasn't here when the team decided to fire hextall, and the guy who made that decision, paul holmgren, is gone.
    Who said I was personally attacked? I think he's generally a poor GM who hasn't shown any ability to take a team above mediocre. I prefer all teams I consider myself a fan of to consistently employ the best. I want them to employ innovative, dynamic, and outside the box thinkers. Chuck Fletcher really isn't any of those things. Or at least hasn't shown an ability to really do those things. Chuck Fletcher, through a decade of running NHL teams has not shown anything that should make anyone very excited about him. Chuck Fletcher isn't the best.

    I had plenty of bones to pick with Hextall over the years. Honestly, he wasn't the best either. This has literally zero to do with Hextall. It has everything to do with a franchise making a decision like hiring a mediocre GM. I wished the Flyers had aimed higher in their choice.

    Perhaps they'll win a Stanley Cup despite this. But I have a feeling the Flyers won't win a Cup under Fletcher.
    Last edited by 1908_Cubs; 02-24-2020 at 11:29 PM.

  11. #431
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    We are in a bad cap situation because fletcher used all the cap money we had on Braun ... 3.8m when we could have just played Hagg or Friedman all year and saved ourselves 2m+ in cap space ... we wouldnít be marginally worse or better.
    braun has 8 points in 10 games this month, and is +9.

    also, despite being a stay-at-home defenseman and playing a ton of PK minutes, braun only has 14 PIMs all season.

    also, braun's CF%, despite a very slow start, is up to 52%.


    and i know these are somewhat arbitrary endpoints, but if you split the season in half and look at what braun has done, it may be worth reconsidering his value:

    first 23 games: 0 goals; 3 points; -12; team record = 11 - 7 - 5
    last 32 games: 3 goals; 16 points; +13; team record = 20 - 11 - 1

  12. #432
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    I'm going to go ahead and disagree that Trocheck doesn't make us a cup team. Watch how difficult Carolina is going to be to play against these next couple of months. That could have been us if we had acquired him. Takes two to tango though and seemingly Ghost doesn't fit the profile of the type of player Florida was looking to acquire. That and Florida owner has supposedly given an ultimatum to cut 10 mil in salary next season.

    That said, I'm not overly upset with this deadline. Fletcher didn't do anything stupid like trade a 1st for Pageau, and the Flyers have been one of the best teams in the NHL the past month+. We won't be favored in the playoffs, but at the same time the Flyers aren't that far away from being a true contender. Things were just fine neither good nor bad today.

  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperX22 View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree that Trocheck doesn't make us a cup team. Watch how difficult Carolina is going to be to play against these next couple of months. That could have been us if we had acquired him. Takes two to tango though and seemingly Ghost doesn't fit the profile of the type of player Florida was looking to acquire. That and Florida owner has supposedly given an ultimatum to cut 10 mil in salary next season.

    That said, I'm not overly upset with this deadline. Fletcher didn't do anything stupid like trade a 1st for Pageau, and the Flyers have been one of the best teams in the NHL the past month+. We won't be favored in the playoffs, but at the same time the Flyers aren't that far away from being a true contender. Things were just fine neither good nor bad today.
    I like Trocheck but he's not an elite talent. I don't think one player transforms this team like that. Trochek might make the Hurricanes a Cup team, but I don't think he does it for us. Maybe we get to a second round, but I think we're still a little away from being a Cup team with a good talent like Trochek.

    Perhaps a truly elite player could take the Flyers into Cup territory this year. But I don't find Trochek to be truly elite. There's a chance a Trochek, with a few savvy moves in the offseason can get there next season, but I think the Flyers can find Trochek-types in the offseason without having to pay the 15% on the contract for this year. So I'm willing to wait.

  14. #434
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    He's 100% in the top 40 centers in the league. And personally I'd definitely put him in the top 30 centers in the league. Placing him in the lineup right between Couturier and Hayes makes us a matchup nightmare. Now you would have a truely elite #1 center, high end #2, a #2 caliber center playing down to 3, and 3rd line center playing a 4. NYI can't match up with that. Carolina couldn't before reading for Trocheck. Columbus can't. Pittsburgh would have an advantage with 1 of Crosby or Malkin on the ice, but the Flyers would dominate lower in the lineup. The only team that could truely match up within the metro is Washington. Boston would be a mixed bag. Tampa I take my chances too. Wouldn't make it a slam dunk for us, but nobody would want to play us and gives us a legit shot at making a run.

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I won't throw a fit missing on Trochek right now. Totally agree in many ways that we're not a cup team, haven't been, and the cap hasn't been managed well. But I can sleep missing on Trochek. And I won't miss the picks. Those are long shots to be anything.
    i think we have two in house options for a trocheck replacement in frost and patrick that are much cheaper. Trocheck, to me, is not the answer as you say as well.

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