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Thread: HOF impact

  1. #31
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    ^ I highly doubt sign stealing gave any player much of a benefit.

    But cheating with minimal results is still cheating, and still casts a giant asterisks over every thing they did. But more than anything, it continues to show the culture of the Astros, that winning somehow justifies all things.

  2. #32
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    And to add to his HOF credential Beltran has excellent post season numbers so again he is not a borderline HOF, you can argue he may not be a first ballot, but his numbers are HOF for sure.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    And to add to his HOF credential Beltran has excellent post season numbers so again he is not a borderline HOF, you can argue he may not be a first ballot, but his numbers are HOF for sure.
    Tell that to Jim Edmonds, Kenny Lofton, Andruw Jones and Bernie Williams.

    For some reason HOF voters are rough on CFers.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    ^ I highly doubt sign stealing gave any player much of a benefit.

    But cheating with minimal results is still cheating, and still casts a giant asterisks over every thing they did. But more than anything, it continues to show the culture of the Astros, that winning somehow justifies all things.
    And I'm fine with that narrative. It's deserved, especially with the acquisition of Osuna and the awful handling of Taubman's comments. But I also think that narrative is incomplete. If MLB took a magnifying glass to all 30 franchises and their clubhouses over the last five years, what would they find? I think you'd have to be truly naive to think the Astros are the only guilty parties in all of this.


  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinobiNYC View Post
    Tell that to Jim Edmonds, Kenny Lofton, Andruw Jones and Bernie Williams.

    For some reason HOF voters are rough on CFers.
    Ok

    Iíll repeat the numbers and Beltran has better accumulative numbers than all those guys you mention.

    9 ASG
    ROY
    3 GG

    565 doubles
    435 homers
    2725 hits
    1582 runs
    1587 rbi
    312 stolen bases

    Post season numbers

    .307/.412/.609/1.021

    16 homers
    42 rbi
    37/33 BB/K ratio

    It should not even be debatable.

    Those numbers are comparable to Andre Dawson who was a RF, as a CF you can argue he should be first ballot.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    Ok

    Iíll repeat the numbers and Beltran has better accumulative numbers than all those guys you mention.

    9 ASG
    ROY
    3 GG

    565 doubles
    435 homers
    2725 hits
    1582 runs
    1587 rbi
    312 stolen bases

    Post season numbers

    .307/.412/.609/1.021

    16 homers
    42 rbi
    37/33 BB/K ratio

    It should not even be debatable.

    Those numbers are comparable to Andre Dawson who was a RF, as a CF you can argue he should be first ballot.
    I like Beltran as much as the next guy, but let's actually compare the guy correctly.

    69.6 rWAR - 8th among Centerfielders all time, Trout is the only one above him not in the Hall (still active)
    Already in, and have less rWAR
    Duke Snider
    Andre Dawson
    Richie Ashburn
    Billy Hamilton
    Kirby Puckett
    Max Carey
    Larry Doby
    Earl Averill


    His 44.4 WAR7 is 11th best all time between Richie Asburn and Kenny Lofton
    His 57.0 JAWS is 9th all time between Snider and Lofton


    Is he a top 15 all time centerfielder?

    I think the answer is an obvious yes, so for me, he's an easy choice to put in. But comparing him to Dawson, an obvious mistake, doesn't really make his case. You wouldn't compare Trout to Harold Baines.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    And I'm fine with that narrative. It's deserved, especially with the acquisition of Osuna and the awful handling of Taubman's comments. But I also think that narrative is incomplete. If MLB took a magnifying glass to all 30 franchises and their clubhouses over the last five years, what would they find? I think you'd have to be truly naive to think the Astros are the only guilty parties in all of this.
    I'm sure that's the case, but they are also, likely, the worst abusers during this time, which is why they are baring the brunt of the axe.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    Ok

    Iíll repeat the numbers and Beltran has better accumulative numbers than all those guys you mention.

    9 ASG
    ROY
    3 GG

    565 doubles
    435 homers
    2725 hits
    1582 runs
    1587 rbi
    312 stolen bases

    Post season numbers

    .307/.412/.609/1.021

    16 homers
    42 rbi
    37/33 BB/K ratio

    It should not even be debatable.

    Those numbers are comparable to Andre Dawson who was a RF, as a CF you can argue he should be first ballot.
    He does have HOF numbers don't get me wrong. But like I said voters are rough on CFers for some reason and may not like what happened in 2017 and they will use it against him unfortunately.
    And the CFers I mentioned are elite in their prime and are in the conversation as one of the best 30 CFers of all-time (and so is Beltran who I would put in the top 10 personally).

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I'm sure that's the case, but they are also, likely, the worst abusers during this time, which is why they are baring the brunt of the axe.
    Yeah, that's totally fair. And it doesn't help them that they've been pretty much the best team in baseball the last three seasons. It's much easier to target the team at the top that's cheating than a team that hasn't seen as much success. People aren't going to be up in arms over an 85-win team that missed the playoffs doing something like this.


  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I like Beltran as much as the next guy, but let's actually compare the guy correctly.

    69.6 rWAR - 8th among Centerfielders all time, Trout is the only one above him not in the Hall (still active)
    Already in, and have less rWAR
    Duke Snider
    Andre Dawson
    Richie Ashburn
    Billy Hamilton
    Kirby Puckett
    Max Carey
    Larry Doby
    Earl Averill


    His 44.4 WAR7 is 11th best all time between Richie Asburn and Kenny Lofton
    His 57.0 JAWS is 9th all time between Snider and Lofton


    Is he a top 15 all time centerfielder?

    I think the answer is an obvious yes, so for me, he's an easy choice to put in. But comparing him to Dawson, an obvious mistake, doesn't really make his case. You wouldn't compare Trout to Harold Baines.
    Well, considering I believe Kenny Lofton is a hall of famer, this makes Beltran a slam dunk in my eyes.


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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I like Beltran as much as the next guy, but let's actually compare the guy correctly.

    69.6 rWAR - 8th among Centerfielders all time, Trout is the only one above him not in the Hall (still active)
    Already in, and have less rWAR
    Duke Snider
    Andre Dawson
    Richie Ashburn
    Billy Hamilton
    Kirby Puckett
    Max Carey
    Larry Doby
    Earl Averill


    His 44.4 WAR7 is 11th best all time between Richie Asburn and Kenny Lofton
    His 57.0 JAWS is 9th all time between Snider and Lofton


    Is he a top 15 all time centerfielder?

    I think the answer is an obvious yes, so for me, he's an easy choice to put in. But comparing him to Dawson, an obvious mistake, doesn't really make his case. You wouldn't compare Trout to Harold Baines.
    Obviously not, but the numbers are pretty similar while Trout to Baines are not even close.

    The fact that he is a CF is what should make it easy for him to go in, if he was a LF or RF I would be like ummmmm.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Didn't you just get done criticizing me for a lack of evidence? Now you're not only basing an accusation on zero evidence, you're completely ignoring MLB's investigation that clearly stated no cheating occurred in 2019. See why Astros fans get upset in these discussions? Critics love to talk out of both sides of their mouth, regardless how hypocritical they're being.

    And 100% agree with the other poster that the 2017 postseason is hardly evidence of anything. 18 games is an extremely small sample size, and if I were to pull up postseason stats from other contending teams at home vs. the road, you'd probably see a similar trend. For example:

    6 games, 35 runs on 47 hits, 9 HRs, 33 RBI, .250 BA, .812 OPS
    7 games, 16 runs on 42 hits, 7 HRs, 15 RBI, .176 BA, .530 OPS

    That's the Yankees home vs. road splits in the 2017 postseason. So the Yankees must have been cheating, too, right?
    I thought you took your ball and went home. Certainly, you're not suggesting that without an MLB stamp of authenticity on the cheating, that it didn't happen, are you? That would go against literally everything you've posted since this scandal broke.

    Look, you can pretend that it didn't mean anything, and that the Astros were 1 of 30 teams doing the same thing. I won't hold my breath for any evidence.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    I thought you took your ball and went home. Certainly, you're not suggesting that without an MLB stamp of authenticity on the cheating, that it didn't happen, are you? That would go against literally everything you've posted since this scandal broke.

    Look, you can pretend that it didn't mean anything, and that the Astros were 1 of 30 teams doing the same thing. I won't hold my breath for any evidence.
    I love how you're deflecting your own hypocrisy to me. The only difference being, my theory isn't attached to a report from MLB stating it didn't happen. And yet yours is somehow more valid than mine?

    And I'm not going anyway, sweetie. My previous post was getting heated, and it wasn't worth it.

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