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  1. #91
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    A 5 million dollar fine, and 4 draft picks to a team that's worth 1.8 million is essentially no punishment at all.

    It was well worth it, and it may even encourage teams to do this knowing that the penalty is pretty much nothing.

    Add to the fact that they save money on their GM and manager. Hire a couple of cheaper options, and they make out even better.



    I wish that my team cared enough about winning that they would work on some creative ways to gain an advantage. But instead, they are working on creative ways to cut payroll.
    Last edited by thawv; 01-18-2020 at 11:33 AM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Dude, I never once said they were victims. Also, did you actually see the post I responded to, or are you just going to take everything I say out of context? Because the guy was throwing around some pretty absurd accusations. Since the scandal broke, the amount of finger pointing and accusations with zero evidence has gotten absurd. It peaked on Thursday with the ridiculous burner Twitter account post, the confetti on Reddick's shoulder and Altuve not wanting his jersey ripped.

    It's getting out of hand. And the most ridiculous thing to me is the same people who are so quick to believe every single ridiculous accusation are the same people who scoff when someone suggests that teams other than Houston and Boston cheated. What's more ridiculous? The buzzer conspiracy theory or the idea that other teams have used similar tactics to Houston to cheat in recent years?


    Yeah, I can see that being an issue. But if ultimately the Astros were only proven to have cheated in 2017 and the start of 2018, I'm not sure it hurts Bregman all that much. Bregs was still a baby in 2017. His best season in the league was unquestionably last year, when the league found no evidence of cheating.

    Really, those are the only two position players from that 2017 team (aside from Beltran obviously) who I think have a real chance at the Hall of Fame. Springer's postseason resume is legit, but I don't think he's been good enough in the regular season and he's already 30. Correa is still really young, but the dude cannot stay healthy; I don't see that changing as he ages.
    I have read every post that you and others have made in these threads. You continously downplay the impact and benefit the team may have enjoyed from their system while pointing to a broader issue at Large. Some posters, myself included, feel that the championship from 2017 has more than a small black mark as you would allege. We also believe that the very nature of the system that they implemented likely had more than just a psychological benefit to the players. I think they directly benefited from the system. We can end all of this nonsense if you simply point to another scandal of this scale within the last 100 years where baseball has performed such a deep investigation and levied such penalties and issued such a report from the Commissioners office. Is there anything comparable since the Black Sox scandal at the team level? Even that focused on specific players.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    Stealing Signs is not the same thing as outright cheating.

    This was not simply stealing signs.

    The argument that "this stuff happens everywhere" in Baseball is a poor attempt to lessen the blow the Astros have rightly earned to feel at full force.
    ◊1000

  4. #94
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    25,785
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Then they're idiots?
    If an entire team had no problem with defrauding the game, with all due respect, you'd have to be an idiot to rule out previous shenanigans.

    I don't like the steroid scandal as a comparison for punishment but there are certain parts of it that fit when it comes to how the people should/will be viewed IMO.

    If someone busts a steroid user from evidence that is uncovered, what are the first words out of their mouth (provided it's not outright denial)? Whatever date they were caught, that's when they started. Everything before that is totally legit. And you'd be an outright fool to assume it was the truth wouldn't you?

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    I have read every post that you and others have made in these threads. You continously downplay the impact and benefit the team may have enjoyed from their system while pointing to a broader issue at Large. Some posters, myself included, feel that the championship from 2017 has more than a small black mark as you would allege. We also believe that the very nature of the system that they implemented likely had more than just a psychological benefit to the players. I think they directly benefited from the system.
    I never said it had no benefit. I'm saying that it's impossible to know how significant that benefit was, because we have zero details aside from "pretty much everyone was involved in some way, and it was used in the regular season and postseason." Which batters used it? Did they use it in every game? How many at-bats and which at-bats? Did they use it in the World Series? Did they use it in any at-bats that ultimately shifted a series in their favor?

    Without more evidence, it's kind of impossible to know how much they benefited from it. But when I look at the home/road splits, I find it hard to believe it was this massive edge given how much worse they were at home all season long. Everyone likes to point at Altuve's stats in the postseason as evidence of the system, but they miss three pretty critical pieces of context for that data:
    1. That's a really small sample size.
    2. Like most Astros, he was significantly better at home that season. (It was kind of a running joke among Astros fans for a while that Altuve just couldn't hit at home and he couldn't wait for the next road trip.)
    3. It's loud as hell at Minute Maid Park in playoff games. If they did have a sound-based system in place for the playoffs, I have no clue how they'd be able to hear it.

    We can end all of this nonsense if you simply point to another scandal of this scale within the last 100 years where baseball has performed such a deep investigation and levied such penalties and issued such a report from the Commissioners office. Is there anything comparable since the Black Sox scandal at the team level? Even that focused on specific players.
    First off, it's not nonsense. This is the discussion and debate you should expect from an internet sports forum. If you don't like the back and forth and the discussion, no one's forcing you to get involved in the conversation. But I don't come to an internet sports forum to agree with everyone, and you shouldn't expect that everyone will agree with you. (Remember a few days ago when you brought up how we all have our own opinions? These are mine, and they don't have to agree with yours.)

    Second, I'll end it once MLB takes the same thorough approach with the other contending teams that it did with the Astros. Go through the emails of the Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers to see if there's any evidence of cheating. Interview current and former players to see what evidence there is. And, while they're at it, make an open call to all players current and former who have anything they'd like to add to their knowledge of sign stealing and the use of technology to cheat in baseball.

    Let's REALLY find out how much this is being used and actually implement a system to stop it. Because what the Astros did was wrong, and it feels gross and is a black mark on one of the greatest moments in the city's history. But they've ultimately become the scapegoats for a league that has allowed this **** to go on for too long and has turned a blind eye to it.


  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    If an entire team had no problem with defrauding the game, with all due respect, you'd have to be an idiot to rule out previous shenanigans.

    I don't like the steroid scandal as a comparison for punishment but there are certain parts of it that fit when it comes to how the people should/will be viewed IMO.

    If someone busts a steroid user from evidence that is uncovered, what are the first words out of their mouth (provided it's not outright denial)? Whatever date they were caught, that's when they started. Everything before that is totally legit. And you'd be an outright fool to assume it was the truth wouldn't you?

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Then you and I just have totally fundamentally different opinions on this, and I don't think we can see eye to eye. I think if you punish every player who MIGHT have cheated in the history of a sport, you might as well not have a Hall of Fame at all. If you don't let the Bonds and Clemens of the sport into the Hall, than no one who played in the steroids era should get in. If these Astros don't get in, no one who played on a team that was accused of cheating should get in; and that extends to guys like Verlander who cheated by being in the clubhouse and being aware of it.

    And I just don't see how you have a Hall of Fame if every time a scandal pops up, you immediately shun anyone associated with it out of the conversation of the greatest athletes of all time. How many times have the Pats cheated? Would you keep Brady and Belichick from the Hall of Fame? Should Brees and Payton and everyone from that Saints team be kept out because of Bountygate? Once you start really taking the same level of scrutiny across all of professional sports, you realize how absurd this ends up getting.


  7. #97
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    https://youtu.be/7LOUQpPQ5qk

    What a lying rat.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Then you and I just have totally fundamentally different opinions on this, and I don't think we can see eye to eye. I think if you punish every player who MIGHT have cheated in the history of a sport, you might as well not have a Hall of Fame at all. If you don't let the Bonds and Clemens of the sport into the Hall, than no one who played in the steroids era should get in. If these Astros don't get in, no one who played on a team that was accused of cheating should get in; and that extends to guys like Verlander who cheated by being in the clubhouse and being aware of it.

    And I just don't see how you have a Hall of Fame if every time a scandal pops up, you immediately shun anyone associated with it out of the conversation of the greatest athletes of all time. How many times have the Pats cheated? Would you keep Brady and Belichick from the Hall of Fame? Should Brees and Payton and everyone from that Saints team be kept out because of Bountygate? Once you start really taking the same level of scrutiny across all of professional sports, you realize how absurd this ends up getting.
    Well we can just stop right there. I am not for punishing everyone who might have cheated. Those are your words not mine.

    And I would not go so far as to hold it against pitchers. Might I in the back of my mind lose a little respect for those who were around while it was going on? Sure. If they were the ones signaling? Absolutely. Otherwise no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  9. #99
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    Jun 2013
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    199
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I never said it had no benefit. I'm saying that it's impossible to know how significant that benefit was, because we have zero details aside from "pretty much everyone was involved in some way, and it was used in the regular season and postseason." Which batters used it? Did they use it in every game? How many at-bats and which at-bats? Did they use it in the World Series? Did they use it in any at-bats that ultimately shifted a series in their favor?

    Without more evidence, it's kind of impossible to know how much they benefited from it. But when I look at the home/road splits, I find it hard to believe it was this massive edge given how much worse they were at home all season long. Everyone likes to point at Altuve's stats in the postseason as evidence of the system, but they miss three pretty critical pieces of context for that data:
    1. That's a really small sample size.
    2. Like most Astros, he was significantly better at home that season. (It was kind of a running joke among Astros fans for a while that Altuve just couldn't hit at home and he couldn't wait for the next road trip.)
    3. It's loud as hell at Minute Maid Park in playoff games. If they did have a sound-based system in place for the playoffs, I have no clue how they'd be able to hear it.


    First off, it's not nonsense. This is the discussion and debate you should expect from an internet sports forum. If you don't like the back and forth and the discussion, no one's forcing you to get involved in the conversation. But I don't come to an internet sports forum to agree with everyone, and you shouldn't expect that everyone will agree with you. (Remember a few days ago when you brought up how we all have our own opinions? These are mine, and they don't have to agree with yours.)

    Second, I'll end it once MLB takes the same thorough approach with the other contending teams that it did with the Astros. Go through the emails of the Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers to see if there's any evidence of cheating. Interview current and former players to see what evidence there is. And, while they're at it, make an open call to all players current and former who have anything they'd like to add to their knowledge of sign stealing and the use of technology to cheat in baseball.

    Let's REALLY find out how much this is being used and actually implement a system to stop it. Because what the Astros did was wrong, and it feels gross and is a black mark on one of the greatest moments in the city's history. But they've ultimately become the scapegoats for a league that has allowed this **** to go on for too long and has turned a blind eye to it.
    Just be consistent. You absolutely said the benefit was strictly mental...a perceived edge by the players, yet you contradict that sentiment when you say "everyone does it" and they've been doing it forever. Why? Because it's psychological edge?

    You have proof of other teams implementing systems like this - show it.

    You literally said there is "maybe a small black mark" on the world series - from anyone outside of the Astros organization or their fans, that is complete nonsense. You can theorize about whether or not another team would've won but to basically treat it as a non-factor, is ludicrous.

    You also played victim when you said everyone laughed when you made posts suggesting others were involved. Really? I didn't see anyone laughing. I saw several posters counter your claims that literally had no evidence other than a tweet where someone "heard" about someone somewhere may have done something similar.

    I'm not going to suspend reason and common sense because you're hurt that your team's championship has become a punchline, and that you're too thin skinned to accept anyone's contrary view. I fully recognize and enjoy the benefits of differing opinions and I love the debate. You're so far on the wrong side of this, and you simply refuse to open your eyes.

  10. #100
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    Quite the opposite actually; given that the technology used to catch the Astros was so widespread that YOUTUBE channels did the heavy lifting here, the lack of any positive evidence, despite the mass access to the same kind of information, found for any other team seems to indicate that this is unique.

    A handful of randos online were able to compile literally dozens to hundreds of examples of this throughout the 2017 Astros season.

    You have access to the same video and footage on YouTube.

    Produce a single example of another team doing this.

    Just one.
    Examples? Nah. I have accusations.

    The only reason those teams have so much evidence against them is because the topic has been brought up already. People are talking about the Astros, therefore youíll see clips against the Astros. Itís just a matter of whatís being talked about right now.


    https://www.brewcrewball.com/platfor...tm_name=iossmf


    https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/ra...tm_name=iossmf


    https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/mets-su...tm_name=iossmf


    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...tm_name=iossmf

    Thereís a **** ton of articles that point to other teams using sign stealing. Iím willing to bet real money that a guy like Yelich regresses quite a bit next year.


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    If Trump can become president with no political background then I don't understand why I need a resumť

  11. #101
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    Mar 2007
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    Houston, TX
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    You know what, sonofdad... It's not worth it. Suffice it to say we disagree. You do you, and I'll do me. But I'm not going to let myself get overly emotional over this. If you can't understand my perspective and make no effort to, then there's really no point in having this discussion.
    Last edited by mightybosstone; Yesterday at 02:20 PM.


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