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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    I'm fully aware that every team in the league is likely looking for any sort of advantages they can, even if said advantage(s) might be in some sort of moral gray area and/or even straight up cheating if they feel they can get away with it. Having said this, I don't think the Astros necessarily got off light and I really don't feel any sort of dislike for the organization for what they did. They cheated, they got caught, and now they're received a set of punishments.

    Yippee....let's move on.



    Of course the rule book is what defines cheating in MLB. I wouldn't even call your average attempts at sign stealing "morally wrong". It's simply looking for an advantage in what is literally a game.

    In terms of PED's, if there wasn't a rule to break then it wasn't cheating. I wouldn't call it morally wrong either. The worst I could say is that it is pretty bad for your body; especially if you don't use them responsibly.
    A big problem from my viewpoint is this.....how good were those teams without the cheating and what all are the trickle down effects of the fact they did? How many players got paid more because of the benefit they received from the cheating? And how many were negatively effected having played against them? I mean I don't buy CC Sabathia inferring the Yankees would have won the Series if not for the cheating, but we'll also never know, either.

    These weren't moral gray areas here...and very few teams would even consider doing some of the things that were done here.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Except the report basically says the system was pretty much just in place for 2017 and a little of 2018. Altuve was an All-Star five other seasons in his career aside from 2017. Even if 2017 was his best season, his numbers could drop off pretty considerably that year, and he's still one of the two greatest second baseman of the last decade and is on pace to be a likely Hall of Famer.
    2017 is when people started paying attention because of all the success. I'd bet they were cheating way before then. Perhaps doing other stuff to cheat like PEDs. You never know with this group of Astros.

    This scandal is so far worse than the Pete Rose saga or even the Black Sox.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    2017 is when people started paying attention because of all the success. I'd bet they were cheating way before then. Perhaps doing other stuff to cheat like PEDs. You never know with this group of Astros.

    This scandal is so far worse than the Pete Rose saga or even the Black Sox.
    So now because they stole signs for a season they've been doing it for years and are taking PEDs? Hell, they were probably gambling on games, too. And kicking puppies and stealing candy from babies. But is that before or after they tied young girls to railroad tracks while wearing comical mustaches, trench coats and top hats?


  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    So now because they stole signs for a season they've been doing it for years and are taking PEDs? Hell, they were probably gambling on games, too. And kicking puppies and stealing candy from babies. But is that before or after they tied young girls to railroad tracks while wearing comical mustaches, trench coats and top hats?
    Now you're getting it

  5. #80
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    I'm not trying to sound like a hater at all but it's ridiculous that there's nothing of consequence for the players. And it's not such a reach that if they cheated in 2017 they did something prior too. Nobody wakes up at age 28 and decides today I will be a cheater lol.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    I'm not trying to sound like a hater at all but it's ridiculous that there's nothing of consequence for the players. And it's not such a reach that if they cheated in 2017 they did something prior too. Nobody wakes up at age 28 and decides today I will be a cheater lol.
    Unless there's definitive proof you can't really punish a player for cheating in my books. Hearsay evidence isn't enough. It doesn't matter though because Manfred already said that players wouldn't be implicated in the investigation. Just executives and owners. Which can't be good for when the CBA expires next year...
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Unless there's definitive proof you can't really punish a player for cheating in my books. Hearsay evidence isn't enough. It doesn't matter though because Manfred already said that players wouldn't be implicated in the investigation. Just executives and owners. Which can't be good for when the CBA expires next year...
    that definitive proof lies in the anonymity players were granted for testifying......good chance some of that eventually leaks out.....
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    Stealing Signs is not the same thing as outright cheating.

    This was not simply stealing signs.

    The argument that "this stuff happens everywhere" in Baseball is a poor attempt to lessen the blow the Astros have rightly earned to feel at full force.
    100% Accurate.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Unless there's definitive proof you can't really punish a player for cheating in my books. Hearsay evidence isn't enough. It doesn't matter though because Manfred already said that players wouldn't be implicated in the investigation. Just executives and owners. Which can't be good for when the CBA expires next year...
    Right...but if there is definitive proof, they should be punished, especially if they had part in helping to orchestrate the cheating. Obviously, Carlos Beltran being named is an example of this.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    So now because they stole signs for a season they've been doing it for years and are taking PEDs? Hell, they were probably gambling on games, too. And kicking puppies and stealing candy from babies. But is that before or after they tied young girls to railroad tracks while wearing comical mustaches, trench coats and top hats?
    It seems pretty clear that the Astros are victims here...unfairly targeted and scrutinized. I mean hey, everybody does it, right?

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    I agree with him if he's referring to players using PED's prior to their being a rule about it.
    I agree with this as well. MLB, through its CBA with the players chose NOT to define rules for the use of PEDs and subsequent penalties. It took forever just to do random testing well after they realized it was a problem in the sport. You can fault players for using PEDs, or disagree with it in general, but you can't blame MLB for not enforcing a penalty for a rule that didn't exist.
    In this case, with the Astros sign stealing, they made it very clear, and documented to all teams and players, requiring signed affadavits, that using technology in this manner was in fact against the rules and would be punished. They laid it out, repeatedly, and made the lines very clear. There is no gray area to this incident.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Except the report basically says the system was pretty much just in place for 2017 and a little of 2018. Altuve was an All-Star five other seasons in his career aside from 2017. Even if 2017 was his best season, his numbers could drop off pretty considerably that year, and he's still one of the two greatest second baseman of the last decade and is on pace to be a likely Hall of Famer.
    Altuve didn't need a sign stealing system to be a great player. What is going to be tough for most of the other players is that they didn't have his resume prior to the scandal - not to say they wouldn't, but perception is going to be hard to shake for a lot of those guys. For that same reason, Cora and Beltran landing another manager's job seems unlikely, at least not in the foreseeable future.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    It seems pretty clear that the Astros are victims here...unfairly targeted and scrutinized. I mean hey, everybody does it, right?
    Dude, I never once said they were victims. Also, did you actually see the post I responded to, or are you just going to take everything I say out of context? Because the guy was throwing around some pretty absurd accusations. Since the scandal broke, the amount of finger pointing and accusations with zero evidence has gotten absurd. It peaked on Thursday with the ridiculous burner Twitter account post, the confetti on Reddick's shoulder and Altuve not wanting his jersey ripped.

    It's getting out of hand. And the most ridiculous thing to me is the same people who are so quick to believe every single ridiculous accusation are the same people who scoff when someone suggests that teams other than Houston and Boston cheated. What's more ridiculous? The buzzer conspiracy theory or the idea that other teams have used similar tactics to Houston to cheat in recent years?

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    Altuve didn't need a sign stealing system to be a great player. What is going to be tough for most of the other players is that they didn't have his resume prior to the scandal - not to say they wouldn't, but perception is going to be hard to shake for a lot of those guys. For that same reason, Cora and Beltran landing another manager's job seems unlikely, at least not in the foreseeable future.
    Yeah, I can see that being an issue. But if ultimately the Astros were only proven to have cheated in 2017 and the start of 2018, I'm not sure it hurts Bregman all that much. Bregs was still a baby in 2017. His best season in the league was unquestionably last year, when the league found no evidence of cheating.

    Really, those are the only two position players from that 2017 team (aside from Beltran obviously) who I think have a real chance at the Hall of Fame. Springer's postseason resume is legit, but I don't think he's been good enough in the regular season and he's already 30. Correa is still really young, but the dude cannot stay healthy; I don't see that changing as he ages.


  14. #89
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    I dont think the stats of any of the astros young core will ever be trusted by voters.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I dont think the stats of any of the astros young core will ever be trusted by voters.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Then they're idiots?


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