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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    The line is very clear. If one side is trying to steal signs, and the other side works to prevent it - it's literally part of the game.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Using that stolen information is cheating imo. I know that's not an unpopular opinion but to me its not gamesmanship.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Sure, its subjective. I know the use of electronic equipment is strictly against the rules but stealing signs in general is cheating imo. I don't know what you are hoping for. I said the Astros got off light. I'm just not looking at from a perspective of my team's hands are clean. I'm not blinded by loyalty.
    I'm fully aware that every team in the league is likely looking for any sort of advantages they can, even if said advantage(s) might be in some sort of moral gray area and/or even straight up cheating if they feel they can get away with it. Having said this, I don't think the Astros necessarily got off light and I really don't feel any sort of dislike for the organization for what they did. They cheated, they got caught, and now they're received a set of punishments.

    Yippee....let's move on.

    So where's the line between morally wrong and cheating? It is strictly a rule book? Like I said, PEDs weren't against the rules until 1991. Does that mean players who were using PEDs weren't cheating before it became a rule? Sure they were.
    Of course the rule book is what defines cheating in MLB. I wouldn't even call your average attempts at sign stealing "morally wrong". It's simply looking for an advantage in what is literally a game.

    In terms of PED's, if there wasn't a rule to break then it wasn't cheating. I wouldn't call it morally wrong either. The worst I could say is that it is pretty bad for your body; especially if you don't use them responsibly.

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    You can understand my point then because almost no one would agree with you that PED use is not cheating.
    I agree with him if he's referring to players using PED's prior to their being a rule about it.

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    I'm fully aware that every team in the league is likely looking for any sort of advantages they can, even if said advantage(s) might be in some sort of moral gray area and/or even straight up cheating if they feel they can get away with it. Having said this, I don't think the Astros necessarily got off light and I really don't feel any sort of dislike for the organization for what they did. They cheated, they got caught, and now they're received a set of punishments.

    Yippee....let's move on.



    Of course the rule book is what defines cheating in MLB. I wouldn't even call your average attempts at sign stealing "morally wrong". It's simply looking for an advantage in what is literally a game.

    In terms of PED's, if there wasn't a rule to break then it wasn't cheating. I wouldn't call it morally wrong either. The worst I could say is that it is pretty bad for your body; especially if you don't use them responsibly.
    I don't look at it that black and white. To me, PED use was definitely cheating even before it became against the rules. Anything that gives you a competitive edge is cheating imo. If its an unequal playing field, its an unequal playing field.

    As for the Astros, I do think they got off light. This doesn't deter teams from doing this in the future imo. 5 million dollars is like 5 bucks for you and I. Jim Crane wipes his *** with 5 million dollars. The financial windfall the Astros made from winning that WS in 2017 alone has made him that money probably 10 fold. The financial part of the punishment is weak imo. Same with the suspensions.

    The biggest penalty imo is the slot allotments from those 4 picks but that's not enough imo.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-14-2020 at 10:09 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I don't look at it that black and white. To me, PED use was definitely cheating even before it became against the rules. Anything that gives you a competitive edge is cheating imo.
    So intensively studying scouting reports is cheating to you?

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    So intensively studying scouting reports is cheating to you?
    No because the information is equally available.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    No because the information is equally available.
    Just like PED's, supplements, workout training and sign stealing.

  8. #68
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    There must be a special place in hell for hitters that guess on a pitch and hit one out in your book metswon69 [emoji39]

    Those ****ers are getting away with murder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Just like PED's, supplements, workout training and sign stealing.
    I shouldn't have used "anything" literally because you can throw individual team analytics into that mix as well. I do think there's a difference between PEDs and intensely studying scouting reports. Same with sign stealing but I understand where I am in the minority.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-14-2020 at 10:51 PM.

  10. #70
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    When the news broke of the punishment it was a bit of a relief to know they didn't go too light on the Astros. However, they still got off easy. All the players and personnel that weren't given as much as a slap on the wrist. And the players were more involved with it than Hinch. Lets keep these hundred-million dollar athletes accountable. I hope none of them are ever elected into the HOF.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Glad you clarified because you made it sound widespread or something that we all are so used to that we just shook our heads and said "who was it this time". Which might be true for someone who just started following baseball in recent years.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    No, it's definitely a new idea when you think about the long history of the game, but it's not new in the sense that anyone who watches baseball shouldn't have been that surprised by all the scandal news this offseason. How many times have we seen articles or social media accusations of players claiming the illegal use of technology to steal information in sports in recent years, baseball included?

    The Astros, Yankees and Red Sox examples are just the ones who got caught, but it does make you wonder how many are doing it that haven't been caught yet. I would find it pretty unbelievable that the Astros are the only team in all of MLB who have used technology to steal signs in the last 3-5 years. I just think you'd have to be incredibly gullible/naive to think that.

    Does that make what the Astros did OK? Hell no. They deserved the punishment and the criticism for what they did, and they should be thankful this is all that happened to them. They did get off relatively easy, all things considered. But if the PED scandal taught us anything, it's that for every example of cheating you can actually find and prove, there are so many more under the surface that may never come to light.

    As I said in the other thread, I don't disagree with the punishment. I don't disagree with the criticism. I disagree with the sanctimonious baseball fans who act like what the Astros did was unconscionable. Anyone who is utterly shocked and appalled by the Astros sign stealing scandal hasn't been paying attention to the sport for... well, pretty much forever.


  12. #72
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    I wonder how other players will treat the whistleblower in this case Fiers. At least hes in the AL still.
    Last edited by Crovash; 01-15-2020 at 04:42 PM.

  13. #73
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    I always knew Altuve was a fraud. Nobody that short can be that good unless you are obviously cheating, which he was.

    I'd rather have AJ Hinch NOT punished, but guys like Altuve, Bregman and Springer get a 162 game ban.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    I always knew Altuve was a fraud. Nobody that short can be that good unless you are obviously cheating, which he was.

    I'd rather have AJ Hinch NOT punished, but guys like Altuve, Bregman and Springer get a 162 game ban.
    Except the report basically says the system was pretty much just in place for 2017 and a little of 2018. Altuve was an All-Star five other seasons in his career aside from 2017. Even if 2017 was his best season, his numbers could drop off pretty considerably that year, and he's still one of the two greatest second baseman of the last decade and is on pace to be a likely Hall of Famer.


  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutPunch33 View Post
    I always knew Altuve was a fraud. Nobody that short can be that good unless you are obviously cheating, which he was.

    I'd rather have AJ Hinch NOT punished, but guys like Altuve, Bregman and Springer get a 162 game ban.
    Clown post alert.

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

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