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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    Considering they’re being scapegoated for something half the league is doing, I think it was fair. Only if MLB treats the teams who did this and didn’t win the same way.


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    Present your evidence that half the league is electronically stealing and relaying signals to batters in real time. By the way I dont need to present evidence that they are not because you made the allegation. I say prove your assertion....

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by zookman65 View Post
    Present your evidence that half the league is electronically stealing and relaying signals to batters in real time. By the way I dont need to present evidence that they are not because you made the allegation. I say prove your assertion....
    You can't prove it because only two teams have been caught. That said, common sense would dictate its happening on a larger scale than just those two teams. This pontificating is ridiculous though. This is a game where results are everything. It dictates job security, salary, how much a team makes, etc. Players, managers, teams, etc are always looking at those things to be a step ahead of their competition.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    You can't prove it because only two teams have been caught. That said, common sense would dictate its happening on a larger scale than just those two teams.
    Quite the opposite actually; given that the technology used to catch the Astros was so widespread that YOUTUBE channels did the heavy lifting here, the lack of any positive evidence, despite the mass access to the same kind of information, found for any other team seems to indicate that this is unique.

    A handful of randos online were able to compile literally dozens to hundreds of examples of this throughout the 2017 Astros season.

    You have access to the same video and footage on YouTube.

    Produce a single example of another team doing this.

    Just one.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    Quite the opposite actually; given that the technology used to catch the Astros was so widespread that YOUTUBE channels did the heavy lifting here, the lack of any positive evidence, despite the mass access to the same kind of information, found for any other team seems to indicate that this is unique.

    A handful of randos online were able to compile literally dozens to hundreds of examples of this throughout the 2017 Astros season.

    You have access to the same video and footage on YouTube.

    Produce a single example of another team doing this.

    Just one.
    I never said its happening exactly the same way. That said, just because its not involving the banging of trash cans to relay signs doesn't mean its not happening in some other fashion. My point about cheating is its an encompassing spectrum. Stealing signs is not the only way to find an edge. Sure, using video is different but stealing signs has been going on for over 100 years.

    Baseball fans have this thing where the game needs to be purer than the other sports. Its part of this nostalgic homage to the days of when it was America's pastime. Its a bunch of made up BS. The fact is baseball is no different than any other sport. In fact, its probably worse because the seasons are such a drag on the players and the guaranteed money is so abundant. With that comes motivation to bend or break the rules.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-14-2020 at 06:42 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Then create a system that allows pitchers and catchers to relay signals with technology other teams can't pick up on. How hard would it be to create a system that allows the catcher to press a button that sends a signal to a pitcher on what pitch he'd like him to throw? We have apps for the most asinine things in 2020—I'm sure technology exists that would make this pretty freaking easy.

    If you have a system in place that allows for cheating, no punishment of any team will ever be enough to prevent cheating from happening. Baseball significantly increased its penalties for PEDs, but guys still get busted for them. You could have stripped the Astros and Red Sox of everything, and someone will still break the rules in a year or two. It's inevitable.
    My memory is not the greatest but i am 39 and I dont remember a cheating scandal every year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    The fact the owner got the benefit of the WS wins and everything that's gone with that, and got to stand there basically saying 'they did what? they're fired' and little more....is just flat laughable.

    As is granting players anonymity for testifying.

    The owner either knew about it.....or should have known about it....either way he should bear more responsibility for it.
    Why do you say he should have known about it? I feel like the GM got it not because he should be around the team frequently enough that he had to know but rather because of direct evidence that he did know. What reasoning is there for assuming the owner would have to know? I dont think i've ever heard of a situation where owners were basically hanging about all the time except perhaps Mark Cuban.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I never said its happening exactly the same way. That said, just because its not involving the banging of trash cans to relay signs doesn't mean its not happening in some other fashion. My point about cheating is its an encompassing spectrum. Stealing signs is not the only way to find an edge. Sure, using video is different but stealing signs has been going on for over 100 years. ....
    Stealing Signs is not the same thing as outright cheating.

    This was not simply stealing signs.

    The argument that "this stuff happens everywhere" in Baseball is a poor attempt to lessen the blow the Astros have rightly earned to feel at full force.
    We’re pointing out that these statistics breed false narratives, and we value the truth. This isn’t about replacing old numbers with new numbers, or attempting to dissuade anyone from enjoying the aesthetics of the game. It is simply about telling the average fan about the reality of what actually happened on the field. The “Holy Trinity” of baseball statistics fail at this most basic task, and so they are not worth deifying any longer. - Dave Cameron

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHawk-181 View Post
    Stealing Signs is not the same thing as outright cheating.

    This was not simply stealing signs.

    The argument that "this stuff happens everywhere" in Baseball is a poor attempt to lessen the blow the Astros have rightly earned to feel at full force.
    Yes it is. Stealing signs is cheating. It's not gamesmanship. Its breaking the rules.

    Its not lessening the blow. Its stopping the ******** of people thumbing their nose at what happened. I already said the Astros deserve a much more significant punishment than what they got but the sanctimonious babe in the woods routine is laughable. Players, teams, managers are well aware of how much money is out there for positive results and they're looking for any edge they can find.

    They're not looking at this from a fan's perspective.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-14-2020 at 07:00 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yes it is. Stealing signs is cheating. It's not gamesmanship. Its breaking the rules.

    Its not lessening the blow. Its stopping the ******** of people thumbing their nose at what happened. I already said the Astros deserve a much more significant punishment than what they got but the sanctimonious babe in the woods routine is laughable. Players, teams, managers are well aware of how much money is out there for positive results and they're looking for any edge they can find.

    They're not looking at this from a fan's perspective.
    Is there really a rule that specifies that, say, the runner on second can't indicate in some way to the batter what is coming? When I played I thought those guys were just dicks, not cheaters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Is there really a rule that specifies that, say, the runner on second can't indicate in some way to the batter what is coming? When I played I thought those guys were just dicks, not cheaters.

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    Even if there is nothing in the MLB rule book that says stealing signs is illegal, we know its cheating. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to distance the team they root for from the Astros. Sure, the Astros did it in a more blatant and arrogant manner but its still happening.

    As a Mets fan, I know my team (like every other team) is breaking MLB rules somehow. I don't need a report or a Youtube video to prove it either. The lack of self awareness in this thread is scary.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    My memory is not the greatest but i am 39 and I dont remember a cheating scandal every year.

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    The Yankees and Red Sox were busted in 2017. The Astros were busted in 2019 for their cheating in 2017, and the Red Sox were bused in 2019 for their cheating in 2018. Call it whatever you want, but there's been a crapton of illegal sign stealing since 2017.


  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Even if there is nothing in the MLB rule book that says stealing signs is illegal, we know its cheating. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to distance the team they root for from the Astros. Sure, the Astros did it in a more blatant and arrogant manner but its still happening.

    As a Mets fan, I know my team (like every other team) is breaking MLB rules somehow. I don't need a report or a Youtube video to prove it either. The lack of self awareness in this thread is scary.
    It's not cheating to steal signs.

    It's cheating to steal signs using electronic devices and things other than the players on the field.

    You are welcome to try and steal every sign you want. Players don't have to send signals to one another. But we do so that the hitter and pitcher can be on the same page and the fielders know what to expect. If you are an observant opponent and can figure out their sequencing, then do it, and help your team win. Otherwise players can just shout what they are about to do or throw. It's not different in football. You are running plays and sending signals in an attempt to win. If the opponent can figure out how to crack your code and you are poor at hiding those signals, that's on you.

    But, you can't use technology outside of the ball field in order to facilitate this. But if your teammates in the dugout and you can figure out, go for it. That's on the pitcher/catcher for not having their **** together.

    What Boston/Houston did her is cheating. They used technology and people outside of the 25 man roster to do this. But Metswon, if you are catching for the Mets, and I figure out your sequence throughout the game, and I'm on second base, I'm more than welcomed to send signals to my hitter to let him know what's coming. That's on you for changing your sequence and being poor at adapting.


    I hate the Astros, I hated them more than the Cubs/Reds/Brewers/Pirates/Reds when they were in the NL Central. But you are more than welcome to steal signs on the ball field.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    It's not cheating to steal signs.

    It's cheating to steal signs using electronic devices and things other than the players on the field.

    You are welcome to try and steal every sign you want. Players don't have to send signals to one another. But we do so that the hitter and pitcher can be on the same page and the fielders know what to expect. If you are an observant opponent and can figure out their sequencing, then do it, and help your team win. Otherwise players can just shout what they are about to do or throw. It's not different in football. You are running plays and sending signals in an attempt to win. If the opponent can figure out how to crack your code and you are poor at hiding those signals, that's on you.

    But, you can't use technology outside of the ball field in order to facilitate this. But if your teammates in the dugout and you can figure out, go for it. That's on the pitcher/catcher for not having their **** together.

    What Boston/Houston did her is cheating. They used technology and people outside of the 25 man roster to do this. But Metswon, if you are catching for the Mets, and I figure out your sequence throughout the game, and I'm on second base, I'm more than welcomed to send signals to my hitter to let him know what's coming. That's on you for changing your sequence and being poor at adapting.


    I hate the Astros, I hated them more than the Cubs/Reds/Brewers/Pirates/Reds when they were in the NL Central. But you are more than welcome to steal signs on the ball field.
    If you're stealing information from other teams, you're cheating, sorry. You want to call it gamesmanship. That's just a euphemism. The element of video makes it significantly worse though. I'm not saying otherwise.

    I don't care if players are doing it as regular practice. We can tell how unwelcomed it is based on the player response if caught.

    Like I said, I'm not dismissing what the Astros or Red Sox did. I think the punishment was very light but I'm not naive enough to believe that cheating on some level is strictly attached to a couple of teams in baseball. Your Cardinals are cheating too, Jeffy. I hate to break it to you and I'm sure Lunhow was using shady tactics when he was VP of player development/procurement over there. Not buying that he wasnt involved in this or for that matter had no knowledge of its existence.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-14-2020 at 07:40 PM.

  14. #44
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    https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...ealing-matters

    Electronic sign stealing is not a single-team issue. Major League Baseball rules prohibit clubs from using electronic equipment to steal catchers’ signs and convey information. Still, the commissioner’s office hears complaints about many different organizations — everything from mysterious people in white shirts sending signals from center field to elaborate systems involving television cameras and tablets. But MLB has not punished any club, at least publicly, for violating sign-stealing rules since 2017, when the Red Sox were disciplined.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    If you're stealing information from other teams, you're cheating, sorry. You want to call it gamesmanship. That's just a euphemism. The element of video makes it significantly worse though. I'm not saying otherwise.

    I don't care if players are doing it as regular practice. We can tell how unwelcomed it is based on the player response if caught.

    Like I said, I'm not dismissing what the Astros or Red Sox did. I think the punishment was very light but I'm not naive enough to believe that cheating on some level is strictly attached to a couple of teams in baseball. Your Cardinals are cheating too, Jeffy. I hate to break it to you and I'm sure Lunhow was using shady tactics when he was VP of player development/procurement over there. Not buying that he wasnt involved in this or for that matter had no knowledge of its existence.
    I wasn't denying that teams all around the league might have been doing this to some affect.

    But if players are stealing signs the old fashioned way, that is absolutely not against the rules. Maybe you view it as an unwritten rule, but it's absolutely, 100% not cheating.

    Be better at sending your signals and information around the diamond. Otherwise, be prepared for spys and competent ball players to catch on.

    Saying you can't steal signals is like saying you can't shift. It's not against the rules, and you are more than welcomed to do whatever you can on the field, with your own talents, to win the game. Using things outside of the ballfield, or people not on the roster, is cheating.

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