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  1. #1
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    Did the Rockets acq of Westy ruin their ability to win a title with Harden?

    Hey guys. I recently decided to Google the stats of the two big guys in the trade from this summer and was shocked at what I found. Not only is Cp3 dominating Harden in most AL categories, but aside from PPG for our little star-stuffer, a lot of the categories aren't remotely close unless I'm not looking at them correctly.

    Add on that the Rockets pretty much traded all of their remaining assets to swap Cp3 for westy and that means they're not a player on the trade market for say Kat or anyone else that requires actual assets.

    With the emergence of Lol and Lac, did the Rockets blow their window around Harden via the westy trade?

    It's tough to see them being able to acquire the right additional pieces around Harden with so few assets unless they hit 3-4 UDFA that turn into stud role players which is why I ask. Feel free to lock this up if this isn't a valid point. But don't do that before looking st the link below


    https://www.basketball-reference.com...01&idx=players
    MTM is my puppet and I am his puppet master.

  2. #2
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    Well Rockets could have beaten GSW if it was not for cp3 injury. Thing is Cp3 seem to always get injured at the wrong time and i think Westbrook defense is better. Health and Defense could make a huge difference. You wont be able to just lock in on Harden.
    Last edited by ldawg; 01-08-2020 at 06:01 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Well Rockets could have beaten GSW if it was not for cp3 injury. Thing is Cp3 seem to always get injured at the wrong time and i think Westbrook defense is better. Health and Defense could make a huge difference. You wont be able to just lock in on Harden.
    What do the advanced metrics say about defense
    MTM is my puppet and I am his puppet master.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    Hey guys. I recently decided to Google the stats of the two big guys in the trade from this summer and was shocked at what I found. Not only is Cp3 dominating Harden in most AL categories, but aside from PPG for our little star-stuffer, a lot of the categories aren't remotely close unless I'm not looking at them correctly.
    You mean Westbrook, right? Because clearly Harden is dominating CP3 in like every statistical category.

    Add on that the Rockets pretty much traded all of their remaining assets to swap Cp3 for westy and that means they're not a player on the trade market for say Kat or anyone else that requires actual assets.
    Even if they had all of those picks, there's not really a trade they could have made to acquire KAT aside from swapping him with Capela, and I don't think swapping Capela for Towns actually makes them better. The position they were in with Paul isn't all that different from the position they're in now with Westbrook from a roster flexibility standpoint. They're just a couple of late 1st-round picks shorter than what they had (and late firsts aren't especially helpful).

    With the emergence of Lol and Lac, did the Rockets blow their window around Harden via the westy trade?

    It's tough to see them being able to acquire the right additional pieces around Harden with so few assets unless they hit 3-4 UDFA that turn into stud role players which is why I ask. Feel free to lock this up if this isn't a valid point. But don't do that before looking st the link below

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...01&idx=players
    No, I don't think they did. Because ultimately they're actually playing better basketball right now than they were with Paul last season. Through 35 games last year, the Rockets were actually four games worse than their record this season. And they're on pace to win three more games than they won last year, win-percentage-wise. Their SRS right now (5.31) is also better than it was last season (4.96).

    Statistically, Westbrook is not better than Paul, but the team is playing better than they did with Paul on the team. It's odd, but if you watch the games, it makes sense. Westbrook gives them a speed and aggressiveness to pair with Harden's methodical half-court approach, whereas Paul was pretty much the same guy. Harden and Westbrook play off of each other better as well. When they look to double Harden, it almost always leaves Westbrook open for a drive to score or pass.

    Two other factors to consider as well: Paul's age/injury history and team rapport. Statistically, Paul is better. But he's also older, more injury-prone and less likely to be playing competent basketball in 2-3 seasons than Westbrook. Plus, Harden just clearly gets a long much better with Westbrook than he does with Paul.

    Look, I get that Westbrook's numbers are bad on paper. Nobody has been more critical of him over the last decade than I have. And he can be a frustrating player to watch sometimes (that third quarter against Philly was like a highlight reel of awful Westbrook plays). But he also has helped the Rockets win games in the fourth that they wouldn't have won last season, he gives them a different look that makes them more dangerous offensively overall, and they're actually a better basketball team that gets along better today than they did a year ago.

    Ultimately, time will tell whether the trade worked out or not, but right now I feel OK about it, and I don't think the Rockets would necessarily be in better shape if they had Paul instead.


  5. #5
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    Hold on while I get my glasses. I swear I just saw someone call Westbrook a better defender than Chris paul.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Hold on while I get my glasses. I swear I just saw someone call Westbrook a better defender than Chris paul.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Paul is better, but I watched a lot of him last season, and he was so far removed from the elite defender he used to be. He's just not laterally quick anymore. I'd probably say both guys are roughly average defenders at the PG position.


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giannis94 View Post
    What do the advanced metrics say about defense
    I need to look at it a lil deeper CP3 last season with Harden vs Westbrook this season with and Both without Harden. One might leave Westbrook open to shoot but he has the athletic ability to stay infront his man and wont be picked on while injured like they did CP3. In other words i will look at team defense vs individual defense. Paul has been the better more crafty defender individually when healthy.
    Last edited by ldawg; 01-08-2020 at 07:10 PM.

  8. #8
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    Yes. Yes they did, CP3 could carry an offense, play much better defense and actually hit spot up jumpers off of Hardens rim attacks whereas teams openly invite RWB to shoot the least effective 3pter in league history. this will matter more come post season, where RWB has been putrid the last 3 years

  9. #9
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    like morey said. rwb increases their risk factor. he has the potential to blow up like a superstar in ways cp3 can't, cp3 was far more consistent. it remains to be seen which pair is better to surround a star with.

  10. #10
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    https://imgur.com/a/q1JQyPI

    As long as Harden is there and gives this kind of piss poor effort off ball, the Rockets will never win with him as the center piece. Dude is a great stat stuffer in the regular season, past that dude is highly unimpressive. The CP3/Wes trade doesn't matter, Harden doesn't understand how to compliment other players, especially other stars.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    https://imgur.com/a/q1JQyPI

    As long as Harden is there and gives this kind of piss poor effort off ball, the Rockets will never win with him as the center piece. Dude is a great stat stuffer in the regular season, past that dude is highly unimpressive. The CP3/Wes trade doesn't matter, Harden doesn't understand how to compliment other players, especially other stars.
    It's one play. The fact that people are still posting singular clips of Harden's defense in 2020 is pathetic. Would you like to find a clip of defensive highlights for you? Or find a clip of Giannis playing poor defense? It's a piss poor way to debate sports.


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Yes. Yes they did, CP3 could carry an offense, play much better defense and actually hit spot up jumpers off of Hardens rim attacks whereas teams openly invite RWB to shoot the least effective 3pter in league history. this will matter more come post season, where RWB has been putrid the last 3 years
    Bingo; shooting is important. Paul knows how to maximize the players around him, while Westbrook shackles them to his style. There's only one guy in Houston other players should be fitting around.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    like morey said. rwb increases their risk factor. he has the potential to blow up like a superstar in ways cp3 can't, cp3 was far more consistent. it remains to be seen which pair is better to surround a star with.
    Paul also missed huge chunks of the last two seasons and looked like a shell of himself last year, completely disappearing for large chunks of time. Also, Harden and Paul never played nearly as well off each other as they should have in theory. Harden and Westbrook play off each other better despite Westy's inability to hit jumpers.


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    Bingo; shooting is important. Paul knows how to maximize the players around him, while Westbrook shackles them to his style. There's only one guy in Houston other players should be fitting around.
    What? I have no clue what you're saying here. How does Westbrook "shackle players to his style?" And what does that have to do with him not hitting 3s?

    I know the guy's a terrible 3-point shooter and a chucker, but I watch him make guys around him better on a nightly basis. And he's hardly "shackling" them offensively. He gives them a completely different look Paul never could. He pushes the pace, keeping defenders off-balance and constantly creating open looks for teammates in transition.

    Seriously, I love all the opinions of posters who've probably watched all of 2-3 games this season trying to explain to me why Westbrook doesn't fit when I watch him fit every single night and the Rockets are winning games.


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    It's one play. The fact that people are still posting singular clips of Harden's defense in 2020 is pathetic. Would you like to find a clip of defensive highlights for you? Or find a clip of Giannis playing poor defense? It's a piss poor way to debate sports.
    Lmao that is offense sir, try to keep up, please.

    I thought it was just last year he was feuding with CP3 but nope, still doing the same stuff this season. Furthermore, I looked back and he used to do it to D12 too.

    Completely uninterested and disengaged in the offense if he isn't the one dominating the ball, pounding the air out of it.

    The guy is atrocious off ball, 2 steps past half court, bent over, hands on his shorts, repulsive. He should take some notes from Steph on how to play off ball.

    So I say even more emphatically, Harden and the Rockets won't win crap as long as he is the main guy and refuses to share the light.

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