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  1. #1066
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    So, yes, you are focused on trying to punish them in your own way then not theirs because death isn't good enough when they choose it?

    It is based on being a family member in your examples, we don't know for sure the relationships or how strong they may be etc. these are just people associated via their bloodline/family name for all we know.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yes. My main goal and everyone’s main goal should be to stop or deter terrorism from any direction. I do not believe any military actions we currently take really accomplish the goal of stopping terrorism from hitting the US. My philosophy is just a philosophy I believe the US should take instead of what occurs now.

    It’s not based on simply being a family member. This isn’t like winning some inheritance from some unknown uncle twice removed. The people held responsible would be those in direct relationships with the terrorists. It will be the child they raised, the parent that raised them or the woman they chose to love and support. Although you could make the case that the children may not know their parents actions, in most cases, the person would know of their radicalism and feelings towards the US in the very least. If a terrorist has no close relationships and pulls off an attack in which they are killed, well then they win. But the decision is still theirs,

  2. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I believe the US has used maximum force which accomplishes what we want to accomplish. The middle east being a parking lot is not valuable. A dictator who we put in power to cater to us is very valuable.

    I replied to your first paragraph but your first paragraph didnt address a single thing from my previous post...

    The reason thousands of citizens die is because the US directly launches arms which directly kill them. That shouldnt be difficult to figure out..
    Again, this would be a change is philosophy. We probably agree that our goal should not be to instill any leadership in the Middle East. We should have no say or influence there. Let them handle their own mess and so long as they aren’t creating some type of nuclear arms, they can have at each other.

    The US may have accomplished their “goals” in the Middle East but again I’m saying this would be a change in philosophy. Our goal should be accountability for those who perpetrated terrorists attacks against American citizens and nothing more. We shouldn’t rebuild, aide or influence anything there after.

  3. #1068
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Again, this would be a change is philosophy. We probably agree that our goal should not be to instill any leadership in the Middle East. We should have no say or influence there. Let them handle their own mess and so long as they aren’t creating some type of nuclear arms, they can have at each other.

    The US may have accomplished their “goals” in the Middle East but again I’m saying this would be a change in philosophy. Our goal should be accountability for those who perpetrated terrorists attacks against American citizens and nothing more. We shouldn’t rebuild, aide or influence anything there after.
    Ok, I get all this, but your post doesnt read like a coherent reply to mine.

    I definitely understand the differences, but there are major similarities between what you're proposing and how terrorist justify their actions. The core fundamental things which are wrong with terrorists launching attacks that kill people are the same exact core fundamental things wrong with what you are proposing.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  4. #1069
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    . If a terrorist has no close relationships and pulls off an attack in which they are killed, well then they win. ,
    Why let them win? Why not just kill their entire village in that instance? That way they lose still.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  5. #1070
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    Iran wants the US out of Iraq.

    With what we learned with the debacle in Vietnam how can we withdraw?

    We leave and Iraq collapses like South Vietnam did from 1973-1975. What killed South Vietnam was Watergate and a strong Anti War Congress that cut off all aid, financially and militarily to South Vietnam. Then the secret promises by Nixon to Thieu with air support if the North broke the treaty never materialized.

    So blame the Dems for killing that Country during 1973-1975.
    My Top 3 Rush Guitar solos

    1. La Villa Strangiato
    2. Limelight
    3. Between the Wheels

  6. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Ok, I get all this, but your post doesnt read like a coherent reply to mine.

    I definitely understand the differences, but there are major similarities between what you're proposing and how terrorist justify their actions. The core fundamental things which are wrong with terrorists launching attacks that kill people are the same exact core fundamental things wrong with what you are proposing.
    So than the US would be on the same playing field as terrorists. Right now, we are not. Terrorists are playing a different game than the US. If we are going to engage with terrorists, we do not need to be “morally better” than they seem to be. Otherwise the US should just accept it when there’s a terrorist attack. The core difference in our actions would be the US would be a reaction not a preemptive action.

    IMO there are only two outlooks the US should have when it comes to an attack on our soil.

    1) military attack- this would be similar to Pearl Harbor. Japan, as a country, attacked a US naval base and the US responded vs the country of japan. Japan fought as a country. If we applied this method to terrorist attacks, there would be a lot more deaths in the Middle East and obviously that’s not appropriate.

    2) terrorist attack - This would be like 9/11. our current philosophy is to seek countries which “harbor“ terrorists and attempt to take precautious military action in seeking out the terrorists in this country- such as Afghanistan.

    My philosophy would eliminate the second outlook and only hold the terrorists responsible for their actions against the US. While their loved ones may be forced to face the punishment, it is the decision of the terrorist which would lead to this reaction.

  7. #1072
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Why let them win? Why not just kill their entire village in that instance? That way they lose still.
    Because destroying a village or whatever doesn’t hold the terrorist personally responsible for their actions. Terrorists should die knowing their decision is most likely going to lead to the torture and death of their loved ones and they won’t be able to help them while living it up with their 72 virgins or whatever nonsense they believe.

  8. #1073
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    Pentagon Says Top Iranian Military Leader Killed

    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Yes. My main goal and everyone’s main goal should be to stop or deter terrorism from any direction. I do not believe any military actions we currently take really accomplish the goal of stopping terrorism from hitting the US. My philosophy is just a philosophy I believe the US should take instead of what occurs now.

    It’s not based on simply being a family member. This isn’t like winning some inheritance from some unknown uncle twice removed. The people held responsible would be those in direct relationships with the terrorists. It will be the child they raised, the parent that raised them or the woman they chose to love and support. Although you could make the case that the children may not know their parents actions, in most cases, the person would know of their radicalism and feelings towards the US in the very least. If a terrorist has no close relationships and pulls off an attack in which they are killed, well then they win. But the decision is still theirs,
    You are just making this about your subjective beliefs on punishment and so on. America should not become radicalized just because some terrorists exist, we strongly disagree there.

    This again is extremely subjective and again what happens to this people's other family members and country etc? You are killing innocent people here via association, including kids. Your judgement they are bad too is simply to find a way to punish people you feel wronged you. You don't extend that option to any of these other people, they are clearly held to different standards based on this association.

    You can't just assume people would know they are terrorists. There is a difference between being a family member and being involved in terrorism because a family member is.

    If you are allowed to make these radical judgements to punish others the question becomes why can't other people and countries? Why just you getting to go to extremes for your own perceived revenge but if you kill innocents no one is allowed to go after your family members who must know you have these extreme thoughts and actions if followed through. You are acting like a terrorist admittedly but don't want the same outcome for yourself that you would push at others with the same type of outlooks (terrorists killing people due to say association with a country)


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    Last edited by mngopher35; 01-14-2020 at 09:10 AM.

  9. #1074
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    So than the US would be on the same playing field as terrorists. Right now, we are not. Terrorists are playing a different game than the US. If we are going to engage with terrorists, we do not need to be “morally better” than they seem to be. Otherwise the US should just accept it when there’s a terrorist attack. The core difference in our actions would be the US would be a reaction not a preemptive action.

    IMO there are only two outlooks the US should have when it comes to an attack on our soil.

    1) military attack- this would be similar to Pearl Harbor. Japan, as a country, attacked a US naval base and the US responded vs the country of japan. Japan fought as a country. If we applied this method to terrorist attacks, there would be a lot more deaths in the Middle East and obviously that’s not appropriate.

    2) terrorist attack - This would be like 9/11. our current philosophy is to seek countries which “harbor“ terrorists and attempt to take precautious military action in seeking out the terrorists in this country- such as Afghanistan.

    My philosophy would eliminate the second outlook and only hold the terrorists responsible for their actions against the US. While their loved ones may be forced to face the punishment, it is the decision of the terrorist which would lead to this reaction.
    Like you openly admit we would be on the same playing field with this approach

    so if on the same playing field why couldn't others treat us the same way. We would now be acting like terrorists you are admitting here but not applying the same standards


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  10. #1075
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    Iran wants the US out of Iraq.

    With what we learned with the debacle in Vietnam how can we withdraw?

    We leave and Iraq collapses like South Vietnam did from 1973-1975. What killed South Vietnam was Watergate and a strong Anti War Congress that cut off all aid, financially and militarily to South Vietnam. Then the secret promises by Nixon to Thieu with air support if the North broke the treaty never materialized.

    So blame the Dems for killing that Country during 1973-1975.
    Way off. What ended Vietnam was a massive public protest against the war that reaches its height with the Kent State killing by the national guards. So blame the American public. Blame the Democrats for following their voters' lead.

    Vietnam is doing quite well now. It took them 10 years of rebuilding to become a stable country.

  11. #1076
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Now Trump says at a rally it doesn't matter cause general Solimani was a bad guy. Accord two Business News, he was pressured by the Republican senators to help his impeachment proceeding. Tomorrow it will move to something else. A dumpster fire of a president. At least Special is consistent and blames the Liberal media for the confusion.
    no this is not what I said. how can you get this from what I said..

    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    some have made what I think is a mistake on not being clear about what some have said was an imminent threat. some have said there was an imminent threat, while others were not so sure. they should have simply stuck what they said, it was an imminent threat period. anything else just provided confusion and allows those against Trump to continue to support Iran and Soleimani. this is the opposite of what should happen, this was a horrible terrorist that killed Americans.
    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Either care about all of it like a decent human being or shut the **** up and stop selective outrage based on whether it serves your political purposes.

    a person is smart. people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals.
    #TrumpDerangementSyndrome
    the anti-Trump movement seems to be getting dumber

  12. #1077
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Way off. What ended Vietnam was a massive public protest against the war that reaches its height with the Kent State killing by the national guards. So blame the American public. Blame the Democrats for following their voters' lead.

    Vietnam is doing quite well now. It took them 10 years of rebuilding to become a stable country.
    Yea right, the 2nd 5 year plan was a complete debacle and an economic disaster....it took reform after LeDuan passed in 1986 for Vietnam to improve slightly.
    Last edited by rrzubnyy; 01-14-2020 at 11:11 AM.
    My Top 3 Rush Guitar solos

    1. La Villa Strangiato
    2. Limelight
    3. Between the Wheels

  13. #1078
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    Iran wants the US out of Iraq.

    With what we learned with the debacle in Vietnam how can we withdraw?

    We leave and Iraq collapses like South Vietnam did from 1973-1975. What killed South Vietnam was Watergate and a strong Anti War Congress that cut off all aid, financially and militarily to South Vietnam. Then the secret promises by Nixon to Thieu with air support if the North broke the treaty never materialized.

    So blame the Dems for killing that Country during 1973-1975.
    The lesson we didn't learn but should have learned is that we should never have gone into Vietnam in the first part. Man war hawks are always ready to have young men and women be killed so that we can fight in countries that have nothing to do with us at all.
    Prior to 11/1/19: if you were on my ignore list, I was sticking to ignoring you thanks to great advise.
    From 11/1/19 on: I will no longer be responding to comments back to people on my ignore list.
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  14. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    Yea right, the 2nd 5 year plan was a complete debacle and an economic disaster....it took reform after LeDuan passed in 1986 for Vietnam to improve slightly.
    The war ended around April of 1975, so I may have been off a year. At least I wasn't totally wrong as you were about the reasons the war ended. Plus, they got huge funding from Russia, China, Eastern, and Western European countries after the war that helped their country. More than five times the money that came from America at the time. What you aren't acknowledging is the fact that Vietnam had huge international support before the war ended with anti-war protests in various European countries. So they were on the road to recovery by 1986. They were a stable country before 1986 with international connections.
    Last edited by WES445; 01-14-2020 at 12:05 PM.

  15. #1080
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    no this is not what I said. how can you get this from what I said..
    Any word on all these important people you trust that said there was an imminent threat...or four...or none?

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