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  1. #6301
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Joe's gone, bud. You don't have to defend him anymore.

    The team to me played with zero sense of urgency the last couple of seasons.

    I'm glad we have a new manager, and I'm quite confident that we will see a different team.
    I feel statements on effort are very hard to defend one way of the other. For me, Maddon did a great job. You cannot take anything away from him. But the FO wants change so they let Joe go. Maybe a new voice works. But this bashing if Joe is just wrong to me.

  2. #6302
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    I feel statements on effort are very hard to defend one way of the other. For me, Maddon did a great job. You cannot take anything away from him. But the FO wants change so they let Joe go. Maybe a new voice works. But this bashing if Joe is just wrong to me.
    I agree. No manager will ever be perfect. We'll have find a reason to complain about something they do. But Joe had a really successful time here and we all got to see the Cubs win the World Series.

  3. #6303
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    I feel statements on effort are very hard to defend one way of the other. For me, Maddon did a great job. You cannot take anything away from him. But the FO wants change so they let Joe go. Maybe a new voice works. But this bashing if Joe is just wrong to me.
    I don't see anybody "bashing" Joe at all. Just some things and observations being pointed out. If they're not favorable to Joe's last couple of seasons, maybe there's something to it. His first 3 years were, lights out! But I don't believe that all 5 years were like that.

  4. #6304
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    Not disagreeing with you here but we did see more of lackadaisical efforts the last couple years on defense and running balls out then we did the first couple years of Joe..

    I think that where we will see some difference along with what Javy talked about with pregame stuff..
    Not true. I remember Contreras trying to pimp a homerun against Washington (I believe) and it ended up being a double off the wall and Joe was very vocal about how unacceptable that was. I pointed out several times this past year how impressed I was with guys running out routine ground balls. Even the star players like Rizzo and KB. I specifically remember the hustle from this team.


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  5. #6305
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    Winning changes a lot. It's not like Joe suddenly changed his managerial style 2 years ago. He's always been a less is more guy when it comes to certain prep. I do think he probably could have done a better job getting certain numbers and trends into guys heads. I don't think he cared about a lot of that stuff as much as the FO. This team put forth as much effort in 2019 as they did in 2015. There are bunch of reasons why the cubs could have a better season next year and a bunch of reasons why they might have a worse one. I hope it goes better. I don't think Ross over Maddon will have a major impact either way. If the Ricketts had bothered to let Theo put together a major league bullpen last season I doubt we are using "lack of effort" to describe blowing like 20+ games.

  6. #6306
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivyboys View Post
    Not true. I remember Contreras trying to pimp a homerun against Washington (I believe) and it ended up being a double off the wall and Joe was very vocal about how unacceptable that was. I pointed out several times this past year how impressed I was with guys running out routine ground balls. Even the star players like Rizzo and KB. I specifically remember the hustle from this team.


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    were not talking about just hustling..

    talking about mental errors on the field and on the base path?

    Mental mistakes are cause by being lackadaisical/lazy

    I'm not saying they didn't try or cared, just that they did go through stretches of looking like their heads weren't in it..
    Last edited by chibears55; 02-16-2020 at 10:51 PM.

  7. #6307
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    But he never said that it was a knock on Joe, or that they underachieved because of Joe. He stated a fact. It wasn't his opinion.
    But some of the facts were Javy didnít get himself ready for the games. Thatís partially his problem.

  8. #6308
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    were not talking about just hustling..

    talking about mental errors on the field and on the base path?

    Mental mistakes are cause by being lackadaisical/lazy

    I'm not saying they didn't try or cared, just that they did go through stretches of looking like their heads weren't in it..
    You specifically said ďlackadaisical running balls out.Ē Thatís what I replied to? Iím not arguing that there werenít mental mistakes on the bases and on defense. Thatís obvious. The hustle was there. I really donít think thatís up for debate. Maybe I just donít understand how thatís Joeís fault. These are professional athletes that know how to play this game.

    Does Joe deserve blame? Yes. But some of yíall are acting like he was the one out there playing the game. Not once have I seen the Joe haters acknowledge maybe Butterfield was the problem with the infield defense... or Venable was the problem with OF defense. That was the positions they coached. Nobody wants to rip them though. Itís honestly a shame that Joe doesnít get the credit he deserves for what he did for is. He wasnít perfect and he did questionable things, but look at what he did for us.


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  9. #6309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sofnr View Post
    Winning changes a lot. It's not like Joe suddenly changed his managerial style 2 years ago. He's always been a less is more guy when it comes to certain prep. I do think he probably could have done a better job getting certain numbers and trends into guys heads. I don't think he cared about a lot of that stuff as much as the FO. This team put forth as much effort in 2019 as they did in 2015. There are bunch of reasons why the cubs could have a better season next year and a bunch of reasons why they might have a worse one. I hope it goes better. I don't think Ross over Maddon will have a major impact either way. If the Ricketts had bothered to let Theo put together a major league bullpen last season I doubt we are using "lack of effort" to describe blowing like 20+ games.
    But at that point, he probably should have.

  10. #6310
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooL D/R/T View Post
    But some of the facts were Javy didnít get himself ready for the games. Thatís partially his problem.
    Of course it's part of Javi's problem. But if Javi and/or other didn't to it, it's the managers job to do it then.

  11. #6311
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    Of course it's part of Javi's problem. But if Javi and/or other didn't to it, it's the managers job to do it then.
    I donít understand why what Javy said is even a big discussion. Joe should have stepped in to have the guys more ready to play and Javy and whoever else are just as much to blame for not doing their part to be ready.


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  12. #6312
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivyboys View Post
    You specifically said ďlackadaisical running balls out.Ē Thatís what I replied to? Iím not arguing that there werenít mental mistakes on the bases and on defense. Thatís obvious. The hustle was there. I really donít think thatís up for debate. Maybe I just donít understand how thatís Joeís fault. These are professional athletes that know how to play this game.

    Does Joe deserve blame? Yes. But some of yíall are acting like he was the one out there playing the game. Not once have I seen the Joe haters acknowledge maybe Butterfield was the problem with the infield defense... or Venable was the problem with OF defense. That was the positions they coached. Nobody wants to rip them though. Itís honestly a shame that Joe doesnít get the credit he deserves for what he did for is. He wasnít perfect and he did questionable things, but look at what he did for us.


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    Well yea, that part of running in the base path

    There was more then just the Contreras example as far as running out of the box

    But yes we obviously agree here overall

    As far as Maddon goes, I'm not a hater of him, I just felt it was time for him to go and it just seemed towards the end, he looked like he was uninterested at times...
    I said it before, Joe Maddon will always be special to me for what he helped bring us fans in 2016...
    Eventually 2018 and 2019 will be forgotten but 2016 will be remembered forever, and he was a very big part of it

  13. #6313
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    Saw a good post on reddit today about ST. Said all pitchers hould just intentionally walk or refuse to pitch to any Astros player that was invovled in 2017-2019 in protest of Manfreds BS lol.

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  14. #6314
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivyboys View Post
    I donít understand why what Javy said is even a big discussion. Joe should have stepped in to have the guys more ready to play and Javy and whoever else are just as much to blame for not doing their part to be ready.


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    I didn't realize it was a big discussion. I only saw a few tweets posted on here, followed by a couple of comments.

  15. #6315
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    Quote Originally Posted by thawv View Post
    But at that point, he probably should have.
    I mean it's the style that led to breaking the curse, and the best 5 year period in cubs history, and that's made him one of the winningest managers in baseball, as well as one of the most coveted. Clearly it's worked pretty well. I kind of feel like the manager shouldn't be completely to blame if grown men choose not to prepare for a game because their manager said it wasn't mandatory. Javy definitely has always seemed like a guy who is more about feel then too many numbers or too much prep. And I really doubt Javy would have turned into the player he has under any other manager in the league. He never would have developed under one of your taskmaster managers. Anyway, Maddon is pretty universally considered one of the best managers in baseball. I had no problem moving on and letting the front office have it's way more often, which is pretty much what Ross is here for, but this idea the cubs players will be much better this year because they fired one of the best and put in a first timer is pretty silly. The Cubs played like a 90 win team last year and their awful bullpen contributed to them underperforming. If they get positive variance or some breakouts this year they could very well be better. That won't make Joe Maddon a bad manager or David Ross a better one. Just like Maddon won't be the best ever and Ross terrible if they play worse. I do think Ross might be better at communicating gameplans and analytic strategy in a way the players can understand. Let's hope so.
    Last edited by Sofnr; 02-16-2020 at 11:58 PM.

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