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  1. #6091
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    Talking more from last offseason or two ago but it never went anywhere because they wanted the cubs to eat a big chunk of money owed
    There really haven't been anything to suggest he was ever going anywhere. Best you'll find is like one report about maybe talking to the Braves about it.

    He was not not ever going anywhere. Not yet at least. Maybe in a year or two

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  2. #6092
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    There really haven't been anything to suggest he was ever going anywhere. Best you'll find is like one report about maybe talking to the Braves about it.

    He was not not ever going anywhere. Not yet at least. Maybe in a year or two

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    The depressing part is heyward will have 10/5 rights after this year so heís not going anywhere if not now

  3. #6093
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    Quote Originally Posted by huff View Post
    The depressing part is heyward will have 10/5 rights after this year so heís not going anywhere if not now
    I'm not sure. Perhaps in two years when it's easier to eat, you can convince him to go elsewhere.

    Thankfully he's at least come around to being a servicable player right now.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  4. #6094
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    Dec 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I'm not sure. Perhaps in two years when it's easier to eat, you can convince him to go elsewhere.

    Thankfully he's at least come around to being a servicable player right now.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

    Batting 5,6,7
    .290 BA .372 OBP
    387 PAs

    Bating 1,2,8,9
    .177 BA .272 OBP
    202 PAs

    Any significance? With Heyward seeming like a guy who gets in his own head a lot, I wonder if him being more ďcomfortableĒ at the 5,6,7 spot could be the difference between goo Heyward and horrible Heyward?

  5. #6095
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    Just looked at it and saw that Maddon started Heyward at 1st in the BO for the entire month of Aug.

    And the result?

    .156/.276/.311/.587

    For the whole month!

    The rest of the year?

    0.272 0.364 0.454 0.818

    If my math is correct.

    That puts him inline with Tommy Pham but with better defense. Which probable makes him a 3.5 WAR guy.

    I know Iím cherry picking out a very bad month but something was significant about that month beyond just ď a bad monthĒ. His May was fantastic either but i left those numbers in because everything else (position and BO) seemed stable.
    Last edited by The20thK; 02-14-2020 at 12:05 AM.

  6. #6096
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    Just looked at it and saw that Maddon started Heyward at 1st in the BO for the entire month of Aug.

    And the result?

    .156/.276/.311/.587

    For the whole month!

    The rest of the year?

    0.2720.3640.4540.818

    If my math is correct.

    That puts him inline with Tommy Pham but with better defense. Which probable makes him a 3.5 WAR guy.

    I know Iím cherry picking out a very bad month but something was significant about that month beyond just ď a bad monthĒ. His May was fantastic either but i left those numbers in because everything else (position and BO) seemed stable.
    That what aggravated me the most with Maddon.
    Players got hot for a good stretch hitting in one spot or hed stick with the same order for a few games and theyd be clicking, and then hed change the order around

    I remember with Heyward, he was crushing the ball at the time hitting in the 6th and 7th slot, I remember Maddon moving him to leadoff and him saying he dont care to hit leadoff but will do what asked, and sure enough after a couple games his numbers started to drop again and he looked like the horrible Heyward again and Maddon just kept sticking him in the leadoff spot...

  7. #6097
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    That what aggravated me the most with Maddon.
    Players got hot for a good stretch hitting in one spot or hed stick with the same order for a few games and theyd be clicking, and then hed change the order around

    I remember with Heyward, he was crushing the ball at the time hitting in the 6th and 7th slot, I remember Maddon moving him to leadoff and him saying he dont care to hit leadoff but will do what asked, and sure enough after a couple games his numbers started to drop again and he looked like the horrible Heyward again and Maddon just kept sticking him in the leadoff spot...
    To be fair his CF/RF splits look bad too... at least until you realize that 20 of 75 CF starts came in Aug when he was hitting leadoff. I donít have the time, or desire, to remove those 20 games from his total CF numbers but Iím guessing they would drastically change his overall numbers.

    EDIT: I lied I did have the desire...

    If you remove those 20 starts in Aug where Heyward was starting in CF and batting 1 in the BO, the his overall CF numbers For the year look like this:

    0.236 0.343 0.379 0.722

    Not great but a heck of a lot better.
    Last edited by The20thK; 02-14-2020 at 01:31 AM.

  8. #6098
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    Aug 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    Just looked at it and saw that Maddon started Heyward at 1st in the BO for the entire month of Aug.

    And the result?

    .156/.276/.311/.587

    For the whole month!

    The rest of the year?

    0.2720.3640.4540.818

    If my math is correct.

    That puts him inline with Tommy Pham but with better defense. Which probable makes him a 3.5 WAR guy.

    I know Iím cherry picking out a very bad month but something was significant about that month beyond just ď a bad monthĒ. His May was fantastic either but i left those numbers in because everything else (position and BO) seemed stable.
    I'm not sure I really buy the narrative of "this guy doesn't hit so well at whatever spot in the lineup". I think it's largely driven by the media as a correlation vs causation thing.

    I think a lot of that was simply bad timing. His first game at leadoff he was 2-5. The game prior he hit second and went 3-5. I think he just went cold. He had four bad games right after that run as a leadoff hitter, too. That he happened to go cold around the same time he became a "leadoff hitter" is something people point to, but I don't know it's anything more than he was due for a cold streak and it went down there.

    I think Heyward is a useful player against RHP. If you want to use his run last year as proof he can't lead off (I don't really buy it, but whatever) then so be it. He can hit 5/6or whatever. I don't think he's. 3.5 fWAR player. I think he's more a 2-2.5 guy because he doesn't need to see the field against LHP very often.

    Truthfully, lineup construction is something I'm not overly interested in to begin with, however. It largely doesn't matter.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  9. #6099
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    I'm not sure I really buy the narrative of "this guy doesn't hit so well at whatever spot in the lineup". I think it's largely driven by the media as a correlation vs causation thing.

    I think a lot of that was simply bad timing. His first game at leadoff he was 2-5. The game prior he hit second and went 3-5. I think he just went cold. He had four bad games right after that run as a leadoff hitter, too. That he happened to go cold around the same time he became a "leadoff hitter" is something people point to, but I don't know it's anything more than he was due for a cold streak and it went down there.

    I think Heyward is a useful player against RHP. If you want to use his run last year as proof he can't lead off (I don't really buy it, but whatever) then so be it. He can hit 5/6or whatever. I don't think he's. 3.5 fWAR player. I think he's more a 2-2.5 guy because he doesn't need to see the field against LHP very often.

    Truthfully, lineup construction is something I'm not overly interested in to begin with, however. It largely doesn't matter.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Yeah I donít get it but there is something there... at least it looks like something there.

    Before the Lead Off Experiment
    0.280 0.366 0.460 0.826
    399 PAs

    After the Lead Off Experiment
    0.232 0.353 0.420 0.773
    69 PAs

    I know itís a sss after but it shows he was getting back. I just feel that if itís merely a coincidence, itís an awfully big one.

  10. #6100
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    That what aggravated me the most with Maddon.
    Players got hot for a good stretch hitting in one spot or hed stick with the same order for a few games and theyd be clicking, and then hed change the order around

    I remember with Heyward, he was crushing the ball at the time hitting in the 6th and 7th slot, I remember Maddon moving him to leadoff and him saying he dont care to hit leadoff but will do what asked, and sure enough after a couple games his numbers started to drop again and he looked like the horrible Heyward again and Maddon just kept sticking him in the leadoff spot...
    You are leaving out a part of what Heyward said. He also said he would do it but Joe has to leave him there. He was fine doing as long as Joe promised not to take him out of lead off after a few bad games. Joe gave him a month. I feel like this is one of those topics that after the results are known people go back and criticize the manager for the decision. At the time he put Heyward lead off it makes sense. It obviously did not work so now Maddon was wrong to consider it.
    Last edited by rcal10; 02-14-2020 at 07:16 AM.

  11. #6101
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    You are leaving out a part of what Heyward said. He also said he would do it but Joe has to leave him there. He was fine doing as long as Joe promised not to take him out of lead off after a few bad games. Joe gave him a month. I feel like this is one of those topics that after the results are known people go back and criticize the manager for the decision. At the time he put Heyward lead off it makes sense. It obviously did not work so now Maddon was wrong to consider it.
    I did say, Heyward said hed do what he asked

    For me, I dont care of team, player or manager, if a guy is in a groove for a long period in one spot, leave him alone

    I remember hearing from years ago to even today, they would ask players about where they hit in the order, most would have preference but all would basically say that they prefer to just know every game that they're hitting in the same spot because it like a routine to them and all..

  12. #6102
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    You are leaving out a part of what Heyward said. He also said he would do it but Joe has to leave him there. He was fine doing as long as Joe promised not to take him out of lead off after a few bad games. Joe gave him a month. I feel like this is one of those topics that after the results are known people go back and criticize the manager for the decision. At the time he put Heyward lead off it makes sense. It obviously did not work so now Maddon was wrong to consider it.
    Probably not all Joes fault on this one (plenty of other things to blame him for) but he certainly should have went away after a couple weeks. Not that this would have any effect on our season... the lack of motivation is what killed us.

  13. #6103
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibears55 View Post
    I did say, Heyward said hed do what he asked

    For me, I dont care of team, player or manager, if a guy is in a groove for a long period in one spot, leave him alone

    I remember hearing from years ago to even today, they would ask players about where they hit in the order, most would have preference but all would basically say that they prefer to just know every game that they're hitting in the same spot because it like a routine to them and all..
    And I did say you left a ďpartĒ if what Heyward said, out. I remember him saying he was fine doing it, but Joe has to promise to keep him there even if he went hitless or slumped a bit. He wanted to know he would lead off. And at the time Heyward was playing very well and it made sense. As 20thK said there is a lot we can blame on Joe, but this was not a bad decision when he made it.

  14. #6104
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    Quote Originally Posted by The20thK View Post
    Just looked at it and saw that Maddon started Heyward at 1st in the BO for the entire month of Aug.

    And the result?

    .156/.276/.311/.587

    For the whole month!

    The rest of the year?

    0.272 0.364 0.454 0.818

    If my math is correct.

    That puts him inline with Tommy Pham but with better defense. Which probable makes him a 3.5 WAR guy.

    I know Iím cherry picking out a very bad month but something was significant about that month beyond just ď a bad monthĒ. His May was fantastic either but i left those numbers in because everything else (position and BO) seemed stable.
    That's insane. Even more insane that they kept him in that spot. Some guys just don't like the leadoff spot - Schwarber is another great example. Rizzo doesn't mind it, albeit he's not a typical leadoff hitter.

    A friend of mine from Kansas City (i.e., without my inherent pro-Cubs bias) criticized Maddon for always trying to be cute. Always trying to be the smartest guy in the room. There's some of that in the Schwarber and Heyward lead off experiments. When it's not working, move on. There's no need to keep guys in failing roles - admit when your "genius" idea was wrong and try another guy in that role.

  15. #6105
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRoy View Post
    Iím pretty sure Iíd do Willy, JHey, Nico, + for Arenado. As long as they take JHey.
    Nobody is taking Heyward, period. The Cubs don't have a prospect enticing enough to take on Heyward. And the Rockies already have another bad contract on their roster in Blackmon and they still have to find a way to lock up Trevor Story. There is 0% chance the Rockies will be convince to take on Heyward in the deal.
    Screw sabermetics.

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