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  1. #6661
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    Aug 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Maddon let all his players do just about whatever they wanted, for better and worse. The proof is in the pudding, the results speak for themselves, for better and worse. Why would a player not like that?

    It's not what the players want or like, it's what the team needs to win.
    The proof is indeed in the pudding. Under Maddon Baez developed into a genuine star and the Cubs had the best 5 year period in franchise history.

  2. #6662
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    Aug 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post


    Let's agree to disagree on the terms Baez did or didn't do. The fact is Baez did not do what he should have been doing before the game in order to maximize his ability to perform and the Cubs chances of winning, and the coaching staff let it happen too. Accountability.
    I'm not agreeing to disagree on such a lazy, unsubstantiated narrative. It's unfair to Joe Maddon to just make things up like calling the team lazy, him a terrible manager, or the players primadonnas.

    We can't even prove what his lack of prep did. The guy has been the 6th most valuable SS in the MLB over the course of the last two seasons. Seriously, how much better is Baez when he's "prepared" is debatable. He said he felt like he could have done more of the non-mandatory stuff. Great. How much that would have improved his production is very unknown. Maybe it helps. Maybe it just makes him feel like it helps. Maybe it over prepares him and he doesn't get proper rest. We don't know.

    The point remains that you've yet to identify any actual information that the team choked, outside of the good old "is the WC game a playoff game" debate, Wilson Conteras once not running out a play (this makes every team in the MLB a lazy bunch of primadonnas as I can guarantee we find an example of a single player not running out a play for every one), Kaplan ranting like an idiot when statistics literally disprove the entire thing and Baez claiming he didn't do extra things without any real proof on how it affected him.

    The story is just conjecture. It's unfair. If you want to levy actual criticsms on Maddon there's enough other things that occurred in 2019 and I've laid them all out in multiple other posts that you can go find. Criticisms of him exist. Real ones. Based on who he let eat up PAs last year. Based on his clear disconnection with the FO (which is bad, the two need to be in lockstep). Based on some over reliance on certain BP arms. Use them. Theyre real. They are tangible. It's far more logical than ranting and raving like a hot-take radio shock-jock like you have about Maddon. There's a logical case to make that the time was right to move on. There's also an overly emotional hot-take one. Thus far you've leaned right into the latter instead of the former.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  3. #6663
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
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    512
    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    You're consistently moving goal posts. The original statement was not "Who is happy with the way 2018 ended?" it was something along the lines of "what a bunch of chokers who are lazy and full of themselves and premadonnas". Am I "happy" that the Cubs lost to the Brewers and the Rockies? Clearly, I'm not. I am however capable of the following things:
    1. Understanding the Cubs finished the year pretty damn well. They had an 18-10 record in August and a 16-12 in September. They had, basically, a game every day in September in a row, and Bryant was barely usable, and they still did this? Awesome
    2. That the Brewers had to play historically amazing baseball in September to win
    3. Two games cannot define 163. One game playoffs are what they are. And the Cubs could have won them. They didn't. It's sad. But it's two games. Two games does not a choke make.
    In 2018 they blew the division lead, then blew the 1-game division playoff, then blew the wild card game.

    Then in 2019 they blew the division again. They got swept in a 4-game series at home by the Cards and then got swept by the Pirates' AAA team. You can come up with all the excuses you want, these are choke jobs and it happened over and over again. When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

    I'm glad you think the Cubs September 2018 was "awesome". I don't. They had their 2nd worst month of the year in terms of winning % and played the Brewers in two different series' that month and lost both series, went 2-4, or 2-5 if you count the division playoff game.

  4. #6664
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    Jan 2006
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    13,100

    2019-20 Offseason Thread 2.0: Winter Meetings Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs View Post
    You're consistently moving goal posts. The original statement was not "Who is happy with the way 2018 ended?" it was something along the lines of "what a bunch of chokers who are lazy and full of themselves and premadonnas". Am I "happy" that the Cubs lost to the Brewers and the Rockies? Clearly, I'm not. I am however capable of the following things:
    I hope that was not how I came across earlier when I was talking about the teams last two September’s. I made a big error about September 2018, that was more because of a rampaging Milwaukee that went 20-7 than the way the Cubs played. Somehow I remembered that month way differently like they played below .500 but they actually went 15-12. Probably because Milwaukee were so annoying but that’s on me that I didn’t fact-check.

    This team was crazy efficient with Joe in charge. June 2019 was the teams first losing month since Maay 2017. 2018 was just impressive given all the injuries and literally having 5 off days in the second half (2 being rain outs), that team fought a lot of adversity. 2019 was an 84 win year but how often will this squad go through two stretches in the final month, going 1-5 and 0-9, again? 7-7 rather than 1-14 and they are in the wildcard game.
    Last edited by JHBulls; 02-21-2020 at 12:48 AM.

  5. #6665
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    Oct 2018
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    2,598
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    In 2018 they blew the division lead, then blew the 1-game division playoff, then blew the wild card game.

    Then in 2019 they blew the division again. They got swept in a 4-game series at home by the Cards and then got swept by the Pirates' AAA team. You can come up with all the excuses you want, these are choke jobs and it happened over and over again. When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

    I'm glad you think the Cubs September 2018 was "awesome". I don't. They had their 2nd worst month of the year in terms of winning % and played the Brewers in two different series' that month and lost both series, went 2-4, or 2-5 if you count the division playoff game.
    Off the top of my head I remember the Phillies and Marlins losing to COLLEGE teams in ST. Sure they didn’t have all their regulars in there, but there were some actual MLB starters playing. You also have to consider that these are all professional ball players regardless and they still lost to college teams. The Phillies even lost against a D2 school.

    Baseball is a game that the worst team can beat the best team on any given day. So yeah baseball happens. Brewers got hot as fire and had the best record in the NL in 2018. We come up 1 game short. They even took the Dodgers to game 7 in the NLCS. I would probably find a better argument.


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  6. #6666
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    Sep 2007
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    Addison, IL
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    2019-20 Offseason Thread 2.0: Winter Meetings Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Well if you call that making the playoffs. Smashing success.
    95 wins (2nd best record in NL, 6th best record in MLB) and a playoff appearance is indeed what I would call a “smashing success”.
    Last edited by CubsRule08; 02-21-2020 at 04:30 AM.

    2016 World Series Champions!!!


  7. #6667
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    Jul 2007
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    14,935
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    They were 40-30 in the 2nd half, by some miracle. Their pythagorean W/L was .500. Scoring as many runs as you let in isn't going to cut it. Scoring 1 run total at home among the divisional 1-game playoff and the 1-game wild card elimination in 2018 isn't going to cut it for a team clearly capable of winning a WS.

    What excuses are you going to make up for them now? If you're happy with 2018, great, i'm not. Not making the playoffs 2 years in a row is unacceptable for the talent on this team.
    For starters in a 162 game season the second half would be 81 games, not 70. So 49-32 is the correct record for the last half.
    Next, of course I am not happy with the outcome on 18', but you use it as an excuse to blast Maddon. That is where I very much disagree with you. He won 95 games with that team who had Darvish sucking or hurt, and Chatwood in the rotation (who sucked). Sure, they brought in Hamels at the deadline, which helped. But Maddon did an amazing job managing that year.
    I am disappointed how it ended, but your use of the word choked is ridiculous. So in every game that a loser goes home, does the loser always choke, or just lose? IMO that team, that year, got as many wins as anyone could have ever asked for. Sure, be disappointed, but to rant about Maddon for that season is unwarranted, and IMO done strictly to get a rise out of people. If you really do know baseball (which at times it appears you do) you would know in 18' Maddon did a great job.

  8. #6668
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    Jul 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHBulls View Post
    I hope that was not how I came across earlier when I was talking about the teams last two September’s. I made a big error about September 2018, that was more because of a rampaging Milwaukee that went 20-7 than the way the Cubs played. Somehow I remembered that month way differently like they played below .500 but they actually went 16-12. Probably because Milwaukee were so annoying but that’s on me that I didn’t fact-check.

    This team was crazy efficient with Joe in charge. June 2019 was the teams first losing month since Maay 2017. 2018 was just impressive given all the injuries and literally having 5 off days in the second half (2 being rain outs), that team fought a lot of adversity. 2019 was an 84 win year but how often will this squad go through two stretches in the final month, going 1-5 and 0-9, again? 7-7 rather than 1-14 and they are in the wildcard game.
    I corrected the September record. Actually 16-12.

  9. #6669
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubsRule08 View Post
    95 wins (2nd best record in NL, 6th best record in MLB) and a playoff appearance is indeed what I would call a “smashing success”.
    I would agree a 95 win regular season with a tie for the best record in the NL during the regular season is a great regular season (especially with all the issues that team had). It was followed by a very disappointing 2 games that eliminated them. However, that was probably Maddon's best managerial year with the Cubs.

  10. #6670
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    Dec 2012
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    587
    Does anyone else thing that the 2018 tie breaker should have been head to head record instead of game 163? Both teams were going to make the playoffs. I just think when you play someone 19 times during the year, that should be the tie breaker and not the 163rd game.

    Sure if its for the 2nd wild card, I can get the game 163, but not when both teams were going to make it in.

  11. #6671
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    Jan 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
    Kudos to Maddon for helping us get a ring. But what worked in 2016 (laid back do-whatever-you-want approach) became a disaster in the following seasons. Not only do I blame the manager, Theo does too. That's the only significant change we made all offseason. Our manager had become a cancer who was rotting this team, and we just cut the cancer out.

    His leadership (or specifically lack of) had become a problem and everything Theo, Jed, and players keep saying continues to support this position. If you give Maddon credit for 2016, which I do, then we have to also give him a large part of the blame for our underachieving the last few years. I didn't think this team could do worse than 2018, and yet it did. Stop making excuses for this team.
    Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

    Yours is pretty bad, but hey, at least you own it.

    #DingerSZN
    #AllenWatch
    End of Season Stats
    .542AVG/.562OBP/.889SLG/1.451OPS/21RBIs/3Dingers(1 grand slam)
    Selected to All-Conference Team
    Selected First Team All-District Team
    Selected First Team All-Region Team
    Verbal Commitment to State Fair Community College

  12. #6672
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    Missouri
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    Javy Baez has "stolen" more extra bases and runs due to "hustle", yet here I am on a gorgeous Friday morning, reading about how this one time he didn't run out a ball off the wall. Conclusion from said event - lazy.

    PSD folks, you can't make it up. Of all the players in baseball, Javy Baez is lazy. Oh yeah, the guy who tore his hammy running sprinting out of the box is lazy too because he washed one of the wall. Damn those guys. Cut em Rossy.

    #DingerSZN
    #AllenWatch
    End of Season Stats
    .542AVG/.562OBP/.889SLG/1.451OPS/21RBIs/3Dingers(1 grand slam)
    Selected to All-Conference Team
    Selected First Team All-District Team
    Selected First Team All-Region Team
    Verbal Commitment to State Fair Community College

  13. #6673
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    Jul 2018
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    4,720
    Let move on to 2020 and the new manager David Ross, the previous years are over..
    Lol[emoji849][emoji38]

  14. #6674
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    Apr 2008
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    9,437
    My take on the whole Madden thing.

    They didn't win the WS because of Madden. It was because the players were good.

    They didn't spiral as a team because of Madden. It was because the players didn't play good enough.

    The Cubs didn't let him go because they weren't playing up to their potential/expectations. They let him go because his contract was expired. My guess is, if had another year on his contract, he would still be the manager.

    Either way, it was time for a change. A new face. A new voice. A new approach.

    I think they have a stellar season, but in all likelihood, it's going to be because of the players.

  15. #6675
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    3,963
    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Javy Baez has "stolen" more extra bases and runs due to "hustle", yet here I am on a gorgeous Friday morning, reading about how this one time he didn't run out a ball off the wall. Conclusion from said event - lazy.

    PSD folks, you can't make it up. Of all the players in baseball, Javy Baez is lazy. Oh yeah, the guy who tore his hammy running sprinting out of the box is lazy too because he washed one of the wall. Damn those guys. Cut em Rossy.
    Can't take anyone seriously if they watch Javy and Contreras play and think they are lazy. Literally the worst opinion I've ever read in my many years of PSD.

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