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  1. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    A lot of coaches and analysts have talked about this. Jokic's game is so unique, people don't know how to guard him. Modern NBA defences exploit a modern NBA big's limited utility on offence. Unless the big can stretch the floor or create for others, their primary usage is to set screens and roll to the basket.

    So if you have a traditional big on the floor, defences are constantly forcing the ball into their hands because a) they suck at making decisions and b) they're usually not a threat from the outside. This acts as an escape valve, where defences can catch a break and essentially reset if they can force the ball back to the big. This is because the big will either have to make a pass outside of their comfort zone or they'll waste time off the clock to attempt a dribble hand off.

    So to counter this, you need to have a big that can stretch the floor or pass the ball. If it is a stretch big, you can't go with your previous gameplan anymore. If you force them to swing back to the big, it's usually an open shot because your own big won't be able to rotate in time. So you go smaller, switch everything, overplay the shot, force them to put the ball on the floor/pass and hope your help rotates in time. If the guy is a passer, you overplay the pass and pressure them to create.

    So what do you do when their big can do everything? If you put a big on Jokic, he'll just eat you alive from the perimeter because traditional bigs suck at defending the perimeter. If you put a small on Jokic to counter this, ***** just bbq chicken for him. If you send help, Jokic is too good of a passer, he'll just find the open shot. If you over play him, he'll punish you.

    Yes, Murray got extremely hot and made some ridiculous shots, but look at how much space he gets when Jokic sets screens for him. No one wants Jokic to roll away or towards the basket, plus you have to worry about Murray coming off of a screen. So unless you have two defenders with good bball iq, you basically have one if not both defenders in no man's land.

    Jokic's game isn't as paradigm shifting as Curry's but it is pretty damn close.
    Not bad for the 41st pick

  2. #932
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    More likely to be a Raptor tomorrow. Matisse Thybulle or Precious Achuiwa?

  3. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    More likely to be a Raptor tomorrow. Matisse Thybulle or Precious Achuiwa?
    Matisse Thybulle in my opinion, because I think we'll value the 2021 1st rounder that Philly can give us over the assets Miami can... but I'm not in the decision room, so don't hold me to that.

  4. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    More likely to be a Raptor tomorrow. Matisse Thybulle or Precious Achuiwa?
    As long as one of them becomes a raptor, I'll be happy as that would mean we'll be getting other assets.

  5. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Raptor View Post
    Matisse Thybulle in my opinion, because I think we'll value the 2021 1st rounder that Philly can give us over the assets Miami can... but I'm not in the decision room, so don't hold me to that.
    I guess the other pieces could be Maxey instead of Thybulle for Philly or Robinson instead of Achiuwa for Miami. I'm really eager to find out how all this shakes out.

    Sounds like Lowry is going to sign an extension. Which at least means he won't leave for nothing this summer. And if the extension is to be traded, then the receiving team knows it isn't only a rental, so there may be more willingness to discuss some of these pieces.

  6. #936
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    I'm thinking we'll have loads to discuss tomorrow.

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...-powell-trades

  7. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I guess the other pieces could be Maxey instead of Thybulle for Philly or Robinson instead of Achiuwa for Miami. I'm really eager to find out how all this shakes out.

    Sounds like Lowry is going to sign an extension. Which at least means he won't leave for nothing this summer. And if the extension is to be traded, then the receiving team knows it isn't only a rental, so there may be more willingness to discuss some of these pieces.
    I would like to get a few immediate interesting prospects and/or possible fits just for the entertainment and interest of watching them for the remainder of the year. Someone brought up a potential trade with the Knicks of Frank Ntilikina and either theirs or Dallas' first round pick for Norm. I like that trade not just because I see value in that first rounder, but because I'd be interested to see Ntilikina's fit with our team over the remainder of the season.

  8. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    More likely to be a Raptor tomorrow. Matisse Thybulle or Precious Achuiwa?
    I think there will be two trades. Lowry to Miami, Norm to the 6ers

    Players Iíd like to see come back Herro, Maxey, Achuiwa, Thybulle. I wonder if we get any picks

  9. #939
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    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    A lot of coaches and analysts have talked about this. Jokic's game is so unique, people don't know how to guard him. Modern NBA defences exploit a modern NBA big's limited utility on offence. Unless the big can stretch the floor or create for others, their primary usage is to set screens and roll to the basket.

    So if you have a traditional big on the floor, defences are constantly forcing the ball into their hands because a) they suck at making decisions and b) they're usually not a threat from the outside. This acts as an escape valve, where defences can catch a break and essentially reset if they can force the ball back to the big. This is because the big will either have to make a pass outside of their comfort zone or they'll waste time off the clock to attempt a dribble hand off.

    So to counter this, you need to have a big that can stretch the floor or pass the ball. If it is a stretch big, you can't go with your previous gameplan anymore. If you force them to swing back to the big, it's usually an open shot because your own big won't be able to rotate in time. So you go smaller, switch everything, overplay the shot, force them to put the ball on the floor/pass and hope your help rotates in time. If the guy is a passer, you overplay the pass and pressure them to create.

    So what do you do when their big can do everything? If you put a big on Jokic, he'll just eat you alive from the perimeter because traditional bigs suck at defending the perimeter. If you put a small on Jokic to counter this, ***** just bbq chicken for him. If you send help, Jokic is too good of a passer, he'll just find the open shot. If you over play him, he'll punish you.

    Yes, Murray got extremely hot and made some ridiculous shots, but look at how much space he gets when Jokic sets screens for him. No one wants Jokic to roll away or towards the basket, plus you have to worry about Murray coming off of a screen. So unless you have two defenders with good bball iq, you basically have one if not both defenders in no man's land.

    Jokic's game isn't as paradigm shifting as Curry's but it is pretty damn close.
    I am definitely not hating on jokic. I realize exactly what type of generational talent he is. Tbh Iím surprised ppl took my comment as some type of jokic hate. Itís about the league.

    Iíll eat my words when a C leads their team to a championship as the #1 option. Denver clearly has the best chance to do this because of jokic, but from the games I watched in the playoffs they were kicking it out to Murray iso ball late in shot clocks and in key scenarios. Murrayís big scoring nights came in elimination games. They came back from down in series a bunch of times, and it was Murray leading those comebacks.

  10. #940
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    You can't say it's "the league" when there has never been a player like Jokic. Usually the center gets fed. Jokic feeds other dudes. He can shoot, pass, he has finesse, he can bang inside. Absolute offensive juggernaut. How can you say you understand what kind of generational talent he is when you keep comparing him to centers. He has a skillset that has never been seen in anybody taller than 6'8.

    It wasn't all ISO. Watch those games again, he got a **** ton of easy gimmies from Jokic doubles and off screens. Jokic's playmaking also kept them in a lot of games where he got guys easy buckets. Jokic also kept them in with his scoring. There were entire quarters where it was just him scoring. That ugly *** Dirk looking shot he does that people call the "Sambor Shuffle" is unguardable. Gobert's 7'9 arms can't even get to it.

    idk what games you watched but Jokic always got the ball late. Murray was just running routes dude.
    Last edited by ecart; 03-24-2021 at 01:17 PM.

  11. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I am definitely not hating on jokic. I realize exactly what type of generational talent he is. Tbh Iím surprised ppl took my comment as some type of jokic hate. Itís about the league.

    Iíll eat my words when a C leads their team to a championship as the #1 option. Denver clearly has the best chance to do this because of jokic, but from the games I watched in the playoffs they were kicking it out to Murray iso ball late in shot clocks and in key scenarios. Murrayís big scoring nights came in elimination games. They came back from down in series a bunch of times, and it was Murray leading those comebacks.
    Olajuwon, Shaq, Ben Wallace (his d and rebounding), Tim Duncan played a lot of C and David Robinson before him...

    But I get your point its more often wings or guards that are the top player on their teams.

  12. #942
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    Feb 2009
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    13,221
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    Olajuwon, Shaq, Ben Wallace (his d and rebounding), Tim Duncan played a lot of C and David Robinson before him...

    But I get your point its more often wings or guards that are the top player on their teams.
    Ben Wallace doesnít belong with those guys imo, but regardless the league has changed since then.

    I didnít watch all 19 of Denverís playoff games, but in the elimination games I watched of theirs (4 or 5 games I watched), Murray was leading the charge. Jokic was disruptive and certainly a game changer. Big impact throughout the game and keeping things close. But in crunch time the team was looking for Murray. No doubt thereís something Iím missing with jokic moving off the ball to create space for Murray, but Murray was their closer in those elimination games.

  13. #943
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    Jun 2018
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    How was he the closer lol? Jokic gave him the ball because he was hot but everything ran through Jokic. And lets not act like Jokic didn't hit game winners and daggers too.

  14. #944
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    Jan 2009
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    7,562
    Players I'd like to have under contract after tomorrow:

    Kyle Lowry
    Norman Powell


    I don't care if they stink it up the rest of the year. That just means they will have a pretty darn good player to add to this core for next season when they come back to Toronto.



    Powell is better SG than any of Herro, Maxey or Thybulle.

    Lowry is the heart of this team/franchise. If he is willing to sign a 2 year 50 million dollar extension with the Raptors, then that is what I would do. Then I would lock Powell up too. We have wing defenders locked up to big deals in OG and Siakam. We have a PG locked up in FVV. If it doesn't work next year then you make some trades for different stars.

    I'm not willing to blow up this core because of anything that happens during a season where they play 100% of their games on the road, and deal with this virus. We already know that when they are right, they can play with anyone. ...and every single one of them has lots of basketball left. I say you pay Lowry and Powell what they deserve, then you draft a piece this year that can actually help them.

  15. #945
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    Jan 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    Players I'd like to have under contract after tomorrow:

    Kyle Lowry
    Norman Powell


    I don't care if they stink it up the rest of the year. That just means they will have a pretty darn good player to add to this core for next season when they come back to Toronto.



    Powell is better SG than any of Herro, Maxey or Thybulle.

    Lowry is the heart of this team/franchise. If he is willing to sign a 2 year 50 million dollar extension with the Raptors, then that is what I would do. Then I would lock Powell up too. We have wing defenders locked up to big deals in OG and Siakam. We have a PG locked up in FVV. If it doesn't work next year then you make some trades for different stars.

    I'm not willing to blow up this core because of anything that happens during a season where they play 100% of their games on the road, and deal with this virus. We already know that when they are right, they can play with anyone. ...and every single one of them has lots of basketball left. I say you pay Lowry and Powell what they deserve, then you draft a piece this year that can actually help them.
    So I was looking into the extension stuff under the rules and apparently Lowry can't actually extend (according to Blake Murphy from The Athletic) as his contract is only a 1 year deal. I'm not certain of the language in the rules themselves, but Murphy is usually bang on with this sort of thing.

    Powell can be extended, but the value can only be like 120% of his current salary. Considering he'll probably get closer to 200% of his current salary as a UFA this summer, there is no chance he extends.

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