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  1. #46
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    I say we just reassemble the 2017 Yankees and Dodgers and replay the World Series. Teams can have one week to get ready. Series starts Nov 20. I'll call Manfred.

  2. #47
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    May 2007
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    I'd love to see the Dodgers choke and get eliminated from the playoffs twice in one year!

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Those are great, convenient stats of a small sample size. Let's look at a larger sample size, like I dunno, maybe the 2017 regular season?

    Altuve home: .311 BA/.371 OBP/.463 SLG/.834 OPS, 92 hits, 9 homers, 35 RBI
    Altuve road: .381 BA/.449 OBP/ .633 SLG/ 1.082 OPS, 112 hits, 15 homers, 46 RBI

    Bregman home: .278 BA/ .343 OBP/ .444 SLG/ .787 OPS, 74 hits, 9 homers, 30 RBI
    Bregman away: .290 BA/ .360 OBP/ .503 SLG/ .863 OPS, 84 hits, 10 homers, 41 RBI

    And that's just two players (I'm not going to take the time to do all six). The biggest problem with the narrative that the Astros were hitting significantly better at home than they were on the road due to sign stealing in 2017 is the fact that they were actually a much better road team in 2017. They were 53-28 on the road and 48-33 at home that season—all anyone talked about that season was how they couldn't hit at home for some reason.

    Also, the postseason narrative overlooks the fact that it's loud as hell at MMP in the playoffs. Those bangs and whistles might be easy to hear in a regular season game, but how could you consistently hear them in a deafening stadium with 40,000+ screaming fans every night in October?

    Again, I'm not debating that this happened or that the Astros deserve no penalty for this. But the level of paranoia after that article came out is getting out of hand. Every at bat and victory and statistic is now suddenly a direct result of them stealing signs with video equipment, with very little evidence to support all of these claims. And that's before getting into the fact that Fiers is the only guy who's gone on the record, a guy with a sketchy past of his own who has a serious axe to grind with the franchise.

    Did they do it? Almost certainly. Are they the only team to have done it? Almost certainly not. Does it completely erase any accomplishment they achieved as a team? Hell no.
    I didnt see your data set showing what they would have batted at home without cheating? Hard to demonstrate the counterfactual right? My main contention is they obviously thought it was helping them or why go through the effort? Comparing what they did on the road to what they batted at home is irrelevant without the benefit of multi-variate analysis.

  4. #49
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    Feb 2012
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    476
    Rob Manfred would be the man if he took 3 - 5 draft picks away from the Astros after the investigation is completed. If not, then the playoff teams that got screwed should bean ball the Astros best hitters. You got to draw the line somewhere.

  5. #50
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    May 2007
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    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  6. #51
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonbourne View Post
    Rob Manfred would be the man if he took 3 - 5 draft picks away from the Astros after the investigation is completed. If not, then the playoff teams that got screwed should bean ball the Astros best hitters. You got to draw the line somewhere.
    lolololololol

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by zookman65 View Post
    I didnt see your data set showing what they would have batted at home without cheating? Hard to demonstrate the counterfactual right? My main contention is they obviously thought it was helping them or why go through the effort? Comparing what they did on the road to what they batted at home is irrelevant without the benefit of multi-variate analysis.
    You know what else is hard to demonstrate? That any of the players listed in that Tweet necessarily benefited from the system, because we have no clue who did or did not use the system, in what circumstances it was used, in what at bats it was used, etc. If you want a true, honest statistical analysis, you kinda need evidence that every player ACTUALLY was benefitting from video sign stealing in every postseason at bat, or at least SOME postseason at bats.

    That's the point I'm trying to make. Posting ANY stats right now is pointless, because we have zero evidence as to which players benefited from the system at this point. Home vs. road, regular season vs. postseason, etc. All of it is irrelevant because there's still so much we don't know.


  8. #53
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    Jul 2019
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    171
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonbourne View Post
    Rob Manfred would be the man if he took 3 - 5 draft picks away from the Astros after the investigation is completed. If not, then the playoff teams that got screwed should bean ball the Astros best hitters. You got to draw the line somewhere.
    In principle I agree. There has to be a deterrence or this type of classless garbage will continue.

  9. #54
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    Jul 2010
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    57,088
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Those are great, convenient stats of a small sample size. Let's look at a larger sample size, like I dunno, maybe the 2017 regular season?

    Altuve home: .311 BA/.371 OBP/.463 SLG/.834 OPS, 92 hits, 9 homers, 35 RBI
    Altuve road: .381 BA/.449 OBP/ .633 SLG/ 1.082 OPS, 112 hits, 15 homers, 46 RBI

    Bregman home: .278 BA/ .343 OBP/ .444 SLG/ .787 OPS, 74 hits, 9 homers, 30 RBI
    Bregman away: .290 BA/ .360 OBP/ .503 SLG/ .863 OPS, 84 hits, 10 homers, 41 RBI

    And that's just two players (I'm not going to take the time to do all six). The biggest problem with the narrative that the Astros were hitting significantly better at home than they were on the road due to sign stealing in 2017 is the fact that they were actually a much better road team in 2017. They were 53-28 on the road and 48-33 at home that season—all anyone talked about that season was how they couldn't hit at home for some reason.

    Also, the postseason narrative overlooks the fact that it's loud as hell at MMP in the playoffs. Those bangs and whistles might be easy to hear in a regular season game, but how could you consistently hear them in a deafening stadium with 40,000+ screaming fans every night in October?

    Again, I'm not debating that this happened or that the Astros deserve no penalty for this. But the level of paranoia after that article came out is getting out of hand. Every at bat and victory and statistic is now suddenly a direct result of them stealing signs with video equipment, with very little evidence to support all of these claims. And that's before getting into the fact that Fiers is the only guy who's gone on the record, a guy with a sketchy past of his own who has a serious axe to grind with the franchise.

    Did they do it? Almost certainly. Are they the only team to have done it? Almost certainly not. Does it completely erase any accomplishment they achieved as a team? Hell no.

    This ignores that this probably didn't happen much during the regular season. You have to look at the playoffs, because that is when the team would be most likely to make these sort of attempts.

    I dunno how much of an impact this really has on the players or teams, but it's enough that a penalty has to exist, like it does with PED's and corked bats, and any other form of cheating. Even when it's not a huge advantage, it is still against the rules, and for good reason.

  10. #55
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    This ignores that this probably didn't happen much during the regular season. You have to look at the playoffs, because that is when the team would be most likely to make these sort of attempts.

    I dunno how much of an impact this really has on the players or teams, but it's enough that a penalty has to exist, like it does with PED's and corked bats, and any other form of cheating. Even when it's not a huge advantage, it is still against the rules, and for good reason.
    Except it did happen in the regular season. Seems like most the examples I've seen are from the regular season actually. Regardless, if they had an effective cheat I don't see why they wouldn't use it any chance possible. Probably easier to get away with when it's not a nationally broadcast game too.

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  11. #56
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    Jul 2010
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    57,088
    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Except it did happen in the regular season. Seems like most the examples I've seen are from the regular season actually. Regardless, if they had an effective cheat I don't see why they wouldn't use it any chance possible. Probably easier to get away with when it's not a nationally broadcast game too.
    I would assume they would have found another way to get that information.

    It's also possible this is one of the few times they actually did it. MLB will need to investigate further.

  12. #57
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    Oct 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeMeNot View Post
    In principle I agree. There has to be a deterrence or this type of classless garbage will continue.
    Its always going to happen. Teams are always going to look for a competitive advantage. The only reason why this gets the fan fare it does is because of how good Houston has been the last few years. If the Pirates did it, no one would give a **** because people would say "Ah well, the Pirates suck anyway".

    Not suggesting the Astros don't deserve to be punished (they do) but we can't be naive to think that they are the only team using illegal means to help their team win.

  13. #58
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    Feb 2012
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    A Firehouse
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    "Sources said both Cora and Beltrán played a key role in devising the sign-stealing system."

    ...so, there's at least a possibility that Beltran is in line for some hefty discipline.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    He is talking about the one and only, pure trash: Ereck Flowers

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyskilla View Post
    His stern face can give that impression but I don't feel that's the case. New York isn't an easy place to play at, so honestly I can see his confidence at an all-time low for him.

    I don't think he's a bust. I think he just needs the right motivation to pick himself up & play harder.

  14. #59
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    Jan 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    I say we just reassemble the 2017 Yankees and Dodgers and replay the World Series. Teams can have one week to get ready. Series starts Nov 20. I'll call Manfred.
    I'd kill for a Dodgers/Yankees series.

    Future Hall of Shamers:
    (1) B.A.L.C.O. Barroids (2) Mark McJuicer (3) Jose Chem-seco (4) Rafael Palmeiroids (5) Ken Chem-initi (6) Jason Gi-andro (7) Ryan Fraud (8) Muscle Melk (9) Woman-Ram (10) Shammy Sosa (11) Roger Clear-mens (12) A-Roid (13) Ryan HGHoward

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Yes, but they pulled stats from a small sample size of six specific players. We don't even know if those players were specifically benefitting from tipped pitches, or if they were using the system for those players in the postseason. They're just random, convenient stats without evidence to support their significance. That was my point with the regular season numbers—that I can find all kinds of stats to prove my point if I want to. But right now all we have is a few players (only one who's gone on the record) saying the Astros had the system in place. We don't know who benefited from it, when it was used, what at bats it was used for, etc.

    Pulling stats right now is completely pointless until more evidence presents itself.
    That's what happens when you cheat. Barry bonds was a great hitter with or without roids. Yes he hit more homers because of roids but he was still a really good hitter regardless. But he cheated so he loses credit for other things.

    Astros cheated and got busted red handed. Gotta deal with the outcome now. If you don't wanna hear it they shouldn't have cheated.
    For not honoring a sig bet I now own YEDB90

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