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  1. #676
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    Fans have a nasty habit sometimes of piling on to the point where none of this is legitimate. Really? Like the Astros would have been perennial bottom feeders and won 70 games without the sign stealing. Clearly, they were doing good things in Houston in terms of putting together significant talent. That team would have contended for a WS without stealing signs as well. Look at how loaded their roster has been the last 3 years.

    Correa doesn't make a huge error in that 2015 ALDS and they could have been in or even won the WS that year. Obviously, the sign stealing helped their cause but it wasn't everything. That was and still is a good team.

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    You keep back to that one post that you completely took out of context. I said I don't think they needed to steal signs, but that it gave them a mental edge. I don't necessarily think it gave them no tangible benefit in terms of production. Did they probably get hits off pitches they would have missed or lay off pitches they would have otherwise swung at? Almost certainly. But is that the difference between them winning games in the postseason? There's no way to know. It's impossible to prove.


    I'm not sure what your take is here or what point you're trying to prove. My point about them being good in 2019 is that, to anyone who thinks there's going to be a huge dropoff in production this year, they were arguably the best offensive team in baseball in 2019. You'd have to assume they cheated last year to think there'd necessarily be a huge dropoff offensively.

    And even if they did cheat last year (which I still think there's no evidence to suggest), the idea that they're suddenly going to go from a top 3 offensive team to a mediocre squad offensively with the personnel they have just doesn't add up.
    My point is that I would fully expect the Astros to have a good season. They are loaded with talent and have to be the clear favorites in the west. I am also saying that the difference between a cheating season vs. a non cheating season may not be so obvious with things like the total number of wins. I would expect, if they are the type of sophisticated, successful cheaters that I believe them to be, that they would leverage their cheating when it benefited them the most. Of course it led to more wins during the regular season, but who knows how many. On that point, we agree. I also think it's ludicrous to believe they put all of the organizational effort into designing and maintaining such a scheme, to think they didn't use it in key series, including the postseason, and at times when it would benefit them the most.

    If guys like Correa are going to be thin skinned about what other players say, they're going to have a long season. Their owner didn't do them any favors with his ridiculous, and by all measures, failed attempt at an apology. They cheated, they got caught, and they should take what comes with it - public outrage is the only penalty they've received, after all.

  3. #678
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    When lamp post personality Mike Trout says something, you know you ****ed up
    Last edited by goingfor28; 02-17-2020 at 10:04 PM.

  4. #679
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    Lamp posts are to be seen, not heard.

  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    Mike Trout, Kris Bryant, Bryce Harper, etc. have all come out and stated that it is a benefit to know what's coming, and they're pissed about it. These are 3 of the best hitters in the game.
    Of course it's beneficial. I don't think anyone here is saying otherwise. It's a matter of how beneficial it is....and I feel like some of you (especially Dodgers and Yankees fans) are greatly exaggerating the effects.

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Fans have a nasty habit sometimes of piling on to the point where none of this is legitimate. Really? Like the Astros would have been perennial bottom feeders and won 70 games without the sign stealing. Clearly, they were doing good things in Houston in terms of putting together significant talent. That team would have contended for a WS without stealing signs as well. Look at how loaded their roster has been the last 3 years.

    Correa doesn't make a huge error in that 2015 ALDS and they could have been in or even won the WS that year. Obviously, the sign stealing helped their cause but it wasn't everything. That was and still is a good team.
    Like players and their chronic lying about PEDís, we may find out the Astros were doing it in Ď15 too. Who knows at this point? My Phillies arenít saying anything. For all I know, they could have been doing it.

    Since the PED era discovery, I donít believe anyone anymore.

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Of course it's beneficial. I don't think anyone here is saying otherwise. It's a matter of how beneficial it is....and I feel like some of you (especially Dodgers and Yankees fans) are greatly exaggerating the effects.
    Idk man. It's pretty obvious to me that Houston would've gone 0-486 the past 3 years if they didn't cheat.
    Last edited by goingfor28; 02-17-2020 at 10:52 PM.

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    Like players and their chronic lying about PEDís, we may find out the Astros were doing it in Ď15 too. Who knows at this point? My Phillies arenít saying anything. For all I know, they could have been doing it.

    Since the PED era discovery, I donít believe anyone anymore.
    More teams are probably doing it than have been reported. That's the way of the world. Everyone is looking for a competitive advantage when the stakes are millions of dollars. That said, the Astros were still a very good team loaded with talent the last 3 seasons. Yes the stealing signs certainly helped and Crane is an idiot for saying otherwise but its not all stealing signs that got them to his point.

  9. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Bregman is still a great player. I don't buy that stealing signs created his MVP like ability. Dude was arguably the best prospect in baseball when he came up. Same with Correa, Springer, Alvarez, etc in terms of talent. Altuve I expect a year where he regresses. He's getting to that age where some of that starts to happen and he's a small guy. I would have said that irrespective of whether he cheated or not. That said, they are still super loaded.

    I'm not defending their comments. The Astros have handled this badly across the board whether its the owners, the players, the former manager, etc. They are still a very good team though.
    I don't think Bregman will walk 100+ times this coming season. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good player but he won't be putting up MVP-like numbers. Altuve is going to be 30 this year so he's in his prime. No idea why you think he'd start to regress?

    In the post you quoted I was alluding towards the mental aspect of it. These guys are human and some of them definitely feel bad. They're going to be getting it on the road all year. It won't be like regular chirps. Granted there are definitely guys who don't give a **** but the shame and guilt will probably get to some of them. Altuve is my pick.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  10. #685
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    The Astros pitching will already be weaker this season without Cole. Plus I'm not sure how much longer Verlander will remain at the top of his game at 37. Barring injury, he'll might still produce great numbers for a couple of years before age finally catches up to him. Greinke is 36 and may as well start declining this season for all we know.

    Future Hall of Shamers:
    (1) B.A.L.C.O. Barroids (2) Mark McJuicer (3) Jose Chem-seco (4) Rafael Palmeiroids (5) Ken Chem-initi (6) Jason Gi-andro (7) Ryan Fraud (8) Muscle Melk (9) Woman-Ram (10) Shammy Sosa (11) Roger Clear-mens (12) A-Roid (13) Ryan HGHoward

  11. #686
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  12. #687
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    OhSoSlick is offline Formerly RCSownsU - PSDs Sexiest Fireman
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    Okay this is a silly lawsuit. Lol

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    He is talking about the one and only, pure trash: Ereck Flowers

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyskilla View Post
    His stern face can give that impression but I don't feel that's the case. New York isn't an easy place to play at, so honestly I can see his confidence at an all-time low for him.

    I don't think he's a bust. I think he just needs the right motivation to pick himself up & play harder.

  13. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Of course it's beneficial. I don't think anyone here is saying otherwise. It's a matter of how beneficial it is....and I feel like some of you (especially Dodgers and Yankees fans) are greatly exaggerating the effects.
    Yet none of the three players I mentioned in my post have anything to do with the Dodgers or Yankees. This is more than just the teams that were likely affected during recent post-seasons. Can you point to another time in your life when the players were this outspoken against something that happened in the sport? Why do you think that is?

    My guess is that because the Dodgers and Yankees were likely affected in the postseason, and of course are more vocal, your stance is what it is.

  14. #689
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    So hereís a thought. Were the balls ďjuicedĒ or were the Astros just stealing signs at a relentless rate in the post season?

  15. #690
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    Too funny. These lawyers are such vultures.

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